Ooohhh Noooo!!! #58 12 lbs underweight!!!...

[Aslak Vind]

Originally Posted by ensign14

And it's all been spoilt by the knowledge that the winning car shouldn't have even been in with a shout.

It hurts the H*** out of me, because I really wanted Brumos to win.

But yes, they should have been no where near the flag, cheating like they where.

Ridiculous verdict!

[mazda1]

Originally Posted by cmk

Maybe I was a little harsh, but I don't like being called names for pointing out that unsubstantiated allegations with little proof are being flung around. If anyone wants to make allegations that there is some sort of skullduggery going on here (which there quite possibly is), surely the logical culprit is the relationship between the France family and Brumos Porsche, rather than Porsche itself?

And you are telling me to cool the hell out and not to get so worked up. I see tears coming out of your eyes. Dude, do you work for Brumos?

[cmk]

Originally Posted by mazda1

And you are telling me to cool the hell out and not to get so worked up. I see tears coming out of your eyes. Dude, do you work for Brumos?

I just implied Brumos Porsche could well have been gifted the win due to their favour with the family that sanctions the series. Do you seriously think I work for Brumos?

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by mazda1

And you are telling me to cool the hell out and not to get so worked up. I see tears coming out of your eyes. Dude, do you work for Brumos?

A less confrontational tone would be appreciated, which was what cmk was getting at with his comment to "cool out" I guess.

Discuss the topic, not the poster.

[old man]

Originally Posted by ensign14

And it's all been spoilt by the knowledge that the winning car shouldn't have even been in with a shout.

Sorry TWK, this is the point, they cheated and won.

As you obviously earn your crust by writing about these things why not explain in a properly researched piece where in the rules an engineer can get the detail of the margin he can use in Nascar or Grand Am when designing his car to fit the technical specification. Does the car have to fit the regulations or is there, say, a 10% margin of error before it gets disqualified?

A detailed study of case histories may prove the point for your piece

[TWK]

Originally Posted by old man

Sorry TWK, this is the point, they cheated and won.

As you obviously earn your crust by writing about these things why not explain in a properly researched piece where in the rules an engineer can get the detail of the margin he can use in Nascar or Grand Am when designing his car to fit the technical specification. Does the car have to fit the regulations or is there, say, a 10% margin of error before it gets disqualified?

A detailed study of case histories may prove the point for your piece

Huh? I wrote what I thought about the race. Period. Maybe Racecar Engineering can do what you want.

The point is that it was a great contest between two drivers, two cars, and two teams. Go read the winner's father's book; that will tell you all you need to know. Yup, an unfair advantage...

I really don't care a flip if someone "cheated." I'll leave that to the "perpetually angry." I'm sure they will sort it out. None of this is "news" in Grand Am, one reason I really don't like the series much.

BUT THAT WAS A GREAT RACE. That's what I wanted to write about. That's what I DID write about. Horrors if everyone writes the same thing. There's a lot about this that brings to mind for me the image of the little old ladies of the temperance movement, huffing about "demon booze." Yup, I believe too that there should probably have been a disqualification (as was done by IMSA at Sebring just last season for the airbox leak for Fernandez Racing - one of the Acura teams). But hell, I'll move on!

In a way this whole dust-up is quite fitting (and hilarious, too). From Wikipedia (Mark Donohue entry):

During their enormous success in Trans-Am, Roger and Mark would begin to experiment with their Camaros, searching for that all-elusive Unfair Advantage. They discovered that dipping a car's frame in an acid bath would eat away small amounts of metal from the frame, which, in turn made the car incrementally lighter, and allowed it to be driven faster around the track. The 1967 Z-28 won its last race by lapping the entire field of cars, raising eyebrows throughout the paddock. During a post-race inspection, race stewards discovered that the car was 250 pounds lighter than the 2800 pound minimum weight requirement. Donohue was to have his race victory taken away for cheating. But, owing to his keen business sense, Roger Penske stepped in. Penske threatened that any disqualification could potentially lead to Chevrolet pulling all support for the Trans-Am series. After considering the options, the race stewards allowed Donohue's victory to stand, but the rules for the 1968 season incorporated a change where all cars will be weighed during the pre-race technical inspection.

[HORNDAWG]

Ah, I get it now. Its the 'Dr.Spock' rules for racing!





L.P.

[gttouring]

but the wieght penalty thing th precedent was set by penske- only after the Camaro was allowed, any car coming in under the wieght will get DQ'd,
.....
grrr.
Montoya really was breathing down his neck and Donohoe did not make a mistake in a lighter car- abeit 12 lbs...still that is something and knowing how porky JPM is the wieght difference is greater (ha ha ha ha)

[URY914]

Grand Am makes the rules. Grand Am enforces the rules. You want to form your own race series you can make the rules too. Until then get over it. #58 won the race.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by URY914

Grand Am makes the rules. Grand Am enforces the rules. You want to form your own race series you can make the rules too. Until then get over it. #58 won the race.

You mean fact is fact? Really? No way. This is a discussion forum, we can discuss how those rules make us feel about the race and the series. Get over it.

[old man]

TWK:

I have been involved in this sport for 55 years and have seen many comments about the phrase you use: "unfair advantage" and have many stories, for example I took part in a UK road going sportscar series where the cars were presented to scrutineers "as driven to the circuit" but after scrutineering which included weighing an entrant was allowed to remove the spare wheel for safety reasons. For the dominant car it took three of them to lift the spare out in the privacy of a truck! The lead mechanic on that car is now a Senior RAC Scrutineer, poacher turned gamekeeper

Post race scrutineering was brought in because of this type of action as your Penske story illustrates.

[Hugewally]

How about the time Penske sent the same Camaro thru scrutineering twice but with diferent numbers on it...

[alwayswatching]

As much as I was pleased that Brumos won, if the car failed tech by 12 lbs, it failed tech and therefore should have been disqualified. Tell me what is the difference to failing by 12 lbs, or having an engine 200cc bigger..........both would be illegal and the Stewards should have ruled so.

But hang on, I forgot we are talking about Grand Am, where the rules are only a guide, the Stewards interpret them accordingly to who breaks them. How many times has CGR been found to be cheating and no action taken...........a simple fact of life that GA needs CGR there and they know it and take advantage of that fact to cheat.

I guess the deal is with GA & the Frances.........kiss a** and get into the exclusive group and you can pretty much do as you want with the rules. Sad reflection on what was a good race overall.

[Speed-King]

I don't think they had penalized a "lesser" time in another way. GARRA is all about the possibility for the underdog to win, and an upset win at their biggest race would probably have suited them quite well...

[Fogelhund]

The underdog never really has any better chance to win in any series, though no question it has been sold as such.

Anyway, the rest of this penalty story is pretty pointless now. Most agree it was a decent race. Those with differing opinions on the penalty are never going to agree, and all the arguing back and forth will never change opinions. Insert beating the dead horse gif here.

[Graham Goodwin]

[URY914]

Agree.

[alwayswatching]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I don't think they had penalized a "lesser" time in another way. GARRA is all about the possibility for the underdog to win, and an upset win at their biggest race would probably have suited them quite well...

There has never been any chance of an underdog winning in DP, without the budget and the *nod* from GARRA, you ain't going to win a race, plain & simple.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by alwayswatching

There has never been any chance of an underdog winning in DP, without the budget and the *nod* from GARRA, you ain't going to win a race, plain & simple.

Depends on your definition of underdog. AIM Autosport winning two races with the very first Riley chassis ever built last year, or SAMAX victory at Laguna Seca would qualify for me as underdog wins, just as Sigalsports win at Miami two years ago.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The underdog never really has any better chance to win in any series, though no question it has been sold as such.

Anyway, the rest of this penalty story is pretty pointless now. Most agree it was a decent race. Those with differing opinions on the penalty are never going to agree, and all the arguing back and forth will never change opinions. Insert beating the dead horse gif here.

Exactly. In my opinion they cheated, any race team in any race series that finishes underweight is cheating. However, I'm not a person that thinks cheating is wrong necessarily. If you can get away with it, it's perfectly fine because it helps you win. If I enter a car in a Grand-Am race once, I'm going to make certain it finishes 20 pounds or so underweight and then use Brumos' defense of "it was an accident, it was not intentional". Why? Because the goal is to win, and me running my car 20 pounds underweight makes me faster and helps me on my goal to win.

So props to Brumos on cheating and getting away with it. A.J. Foyt would be proud of them.