Jerez Test

[bestfit]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither of them won another race in MotoGP after Rossi was done with them. Stoner may win another race, but only if it rains, or something happens that Rossi can't get close to him.

Stoner has won twice since Laguna Seca last year.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by gomick

Think a Honda in the hands of Dani Pedrosa has to have atleast 1 race win where he has the complete package for that weekend....

Yeah, but how long till he's healthy? And once again he hasn't had much testing going into the season. Certainly this puts him at a large disadvantage. Not to mention, he doesn't seem as strong in a straight fight in comparison to Stoner and Rossi.

Lorenzo could be a threat if he has momentum early on.

[jhansen]

This doesn't sound too promising for Pedrosa. Two weeks is a short time. And it would seem that all is not well with Divisioso.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/...331pedrosa.htm

[DavidStHubbins]

Stoner will always have Laguna, Brno (and that other place he speared off with Rossi on his back) in his memory.

The two places Stoner won were places he was able to get away from an already-crowned champ Rossi. If Rossi was on his back again, who knows what would've happened?

Hopefully we find out this season.

[bestfit]

Rossi won at Laguna with one of the most brilliant tactical rides I have ever seen. He used the layout of that particular track and some phenomenal braking manouvers to beat a bike/rider which had an obvious speed advantage at that circuit. The same tactics would not have worked at any other circuit in the championship and he certainly ****ed Stoner off. That cannot be denied. However it has been argued, to a certain extent here, but more vigorously on other (IMO) less intelligent forums, that it was here that Rossi "got into Stoner's head". It is this opinion that I have never agreed with.
The battle ended at Laguna with Stoner making a braking error at the final corner and running off track. Unfortunately while re-entering the track his front wheel slipped into the cut where the sand trap meets the natural ground level and he lost the front wheel and the bike tipped over. But it should be remembered that at the time of the "crash" Stoner was crawling all over the back of Rossi as he had been all race and there were still nine laps remaining in the race. I'm not saying that without the crash Stoner would have won, racing doesn't work like that, nor am I taking anything away from Rossi, but it was a very soft ending to a brilliant battle. I would have loved to have seen those last nine laps without the crash.
I believe that Casey's post race antics, which I was disappointed with, gave rise to this idea that Vale had "cracked" Stoner. I don't believe this. As I posted at the time, Stoner said and did nothing after the race that Rossi and many others have also done previously. He was ****ed off and he showed it but I don't believe he was cracked.
To add weight to the "fan boy's" opinion (I hate that term by the way) Stoner fell in the next two races at Brno and Misano. They immediately claimed this as further evidence that Rossi was "in his head", but was he?
When Stoner fell at Brno he lost the front wheel. At the time he over 3 seconds in front of Rossi and going away. All of his laps except one were quicker than Rossi. Stoner made a mistake and lost the race, fair enough. But how can this be attributed as it was by many, to pressure being applied by a slower rider 3 seconds behind? IMO it can't be.
The Misano crash was similar but not so extreme. Again he lost the front wheel while leading but this time the gap was just under 1 second. Of the three races, Misano was perhaps the only one where a portion of the blame for the crash may be attributed to pressure from Rossi. But personally I don't believe so.
In the end Rossi won the championship and Stoner came second and that is all that matters. I don't believe that Rossi has gotten into Stoner's head any more than I believe Stoner has gotten into Rossi's.
What I'm hoping for this year is some fierce battle between the currently two best riders on the planet.

[chunder]

Addin weight to this issue for me is one simple fact.

Stoner is not very good at overtaking Rossi!

As I said before, Valentino and Burgess are VERY clever. They will make the bike superb on the brakes in ONE place to capitalise on the fact that Vale can do people on the brakes.

They will squander straight line speed, give up a little traction, prevent Vale from being quick in some areas if they can have a clear advantage in ONE place.

Casey for his prt uses his advantage well, namely straight line speed and up until last year a front tyre that only he could use.

Vale got on equal ish terms by re-engineering the bike for the Stoner Bridgestone front and then went to work.

What Casey needs to do is eitehr do what Pedrobot does and get away, or try and take maximum advantage of his bikes good points.

I dont think Vale is in Casey;s head, but Vale does hold an advantage in terms of experience.

I honestly dont think Casey is good in a scrap, he is better than Dani, but Vale is still king there.

THe ONLY guy Vale will admit to beating him in a fight is Barros who has beaten him up a few times over the years!!

[bestfit]

Since the introduction of the 800's there has really only been 2 full on head to head battles between Rossi and Stoner. Catalunya 2007 and Laguna Seca 2008.
I'd call it 1-1.

My hope this year is that we will see consistently close battles between the two without one or the other running off into the distance. I don't care who wins but I'd like to see the questions answered indisputably on the track rather be discussed endlessly on some forum** by idiots who believe that GP racing started in 2001 and nothing of any significance happened before VR arrived.

** To be clear I am not talking about 10-Tenths here or the posters on this forum. Although light on content I think this forum in the main promotes interesting and well thought out discussions on most topics. Unfortunately on other forums that you might crash into on the internet, by the time you wade through the silly schoolyard nick names and discussions about my dick is bigger than your dick, there is very little in the way of intelligent appraisal of what actually occurred on the track.

[chunder]

Again, it is a shame this forum is not bike related

Most of teh bike forums as you say are very childish and dominated by people who only ever will ahve one favourite rider and cant see past the end of their nose.

Laying it on the line here I never liked Casey, but Brit GP 08 changed that, the way he dealth with the morons was superb and after spending some time watching him the way he rides that bike I dont even think Rossi could better him, maybe equal and beat but not better.

Vale is Vale, he is king and alwasy has been in every way.

But is he a Rainey, Lawson, Schwantz!! Haha we will never know!

[bestfit]

Casey is a brilliant rider. Love him or hate him, his talent can't be dismissed.
What I find to be a real conundrum is the Ducati. I can't make up my mind whether it is a great bike ridden by a great rider or an average bike made to look good by a great rider. When you look at the list riders who have thrown a leg over the GP7/8/9 you have Stoner, Capirossi, Hoffman, Ito, Melandri, Elias, Guintoli, Hayden, Guareschi, Gibenau, Kallio and Canepa. That is 12 riders including some very experienced guys. If the bike was that good you would expect at least some of these riders apart from Stoner to be able to come to grips with it and show some decent results. But the fact is they haven't. Capirossi and Elias were able to eak out a couple of results, but in general it has been Stoner then daylight and then the other Ducatis, for the last 2 years and it looks like being the same this year based on pre-season testing. Kallio shows some promise but was still 1.5secs+ slower than Stoner at Jerez.
So back to my question. Is the Ducati a good bike or an average bike?

[chunder]

I think the Ducati is an exceptional bike.

And if you look, going back to the original 990 it was very good most of the time.

In 04 they went the wrong way in develeoping it and Bayliss simply was nowhere on it as was Loris, but towards the end of the 990 era that bike was yet again right at the front, and interestingly, both rider were fairly close in speed, due in no [art to Bridgestone and Itoh/Vito.

I think D'Antin in those days were a shadow of the team that run Pramac now and it is obvious that things were not right there, so maybe unfair to be harsh on the likes of Barros, Hodgs, Xaus, Hoffmann etc. But they often got very good results, even Rolfo on Dunlops!!

The 800 though seems to be a very fickle machine.

Surely, it must be made easier to ride? What is it about Casey that makes him able to eke out that bit extra that superb talents like Hayden, Marco and Loris cant?

They are not rubbish riders, Loris in particular would surely have won titles were it not for Vale, and maybe Marco too.

I think that

a) Casey developed a new front Bridgestone with their and Ducati's help. The other riders could not run on that tyre as we now, well they could but not quickly. Hence biike development followed that front.

b)The throttle feeling is very hard to adjust to, very snatchy and peaky power. Casey can ride it like that the others simply can't adjust and need more feeling and linearity. Why change when your champ can ride it?

c)As Ferrari did with Michael the Duke is now designed around Casey. Why would they change it? Yes Hayden is a champ but would you really re-design a bike for him, and obviously not Mika, Nicc. This is not new remember, Honda did with Freddie, Gardner and Mick and Vale for years as did Suzuki with Kevin and Yamaha with Max not so much Rainey.

d)We miss Kenny Sr!! Remember when Wayne had his accident, Kenny just kept saying "Its simple, Luca rides it different to Wayne, the bike can win and Luca can but he needs it to be perfect and we cant do that all the time!" The Duke needs Casey as the Yam needed Wayne, simple the two are joined at the hip and why should Corse redesign the bike for another rider when the one they have and pay money for is better than anyone else could be on it.

e)Vale. The only way you will get an answer is to put Vale on a Ducati and see what happens!

[jhansen]

I admit that at the time of Laguna I thought that Rossi got into Stoner's head. But it probably wasn't as long-term as some people have made it out to be. For sure, I think that was the defining moment of the season. But I agree, I'm not sure that it played into Stoner's next two DNF's. Although, it's feasible that Stoner kept the pace as high as he could at Brno and Missano in order to hold a gap and not engage Rossi head to head.

As for the GP7-8-9, I reckon it's a good bike, but not a great bike. I think the Yamaha is the best all around bike on the grid. It just seems very usable. As for Rossi riding the Ducati, I'd wager he couldn't match Stoner on it. But, I don't think Stoner could match Rossi on the Yamaha.

So I think what we have is good. Two great riders on two great bikes pushing like mad. I just hope the battle is strong this year and goes the distance. Because with 18 bikes and non-990 quality fields, its slim pickin these days.

And poor Nicky, hopefully he can fluke a win.

Originally Posted by bestfit

Since the introduction of the 800's there has really only been 2 full on head to head battles between Rossi and Stoner. Catalunya 2007 and Laguna Seca 2008.
I'd call it 1-1.

I'd call it 2-2.

Stoner: Qatar '07, Catalunya '07
Rossi: Assen '07, Laguna '08

But, I could even give the edge to Stoner if I count Shanghai '07...

[2000yellow360]

I think that there is some truth to most of what has been said about the Ducati, but I think that the bike is adequate, makes great power, handles acceptably, but not great. Where it is outstanding is in the electronics. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks like Casey is letting the electronics do the job, he rolls the gas on, and lets the traction control do it's job. Nobody else riding one of them seems to have that much faith in the vehicle, and they try to control it, but they don't let it work.

Maybe it's Casy's ability to set the limits on what the TC will allow him to do, or maybe it's his engineer setting things, but if you watch the electronics when he's riding with Valie, it seems that he rolls the gas on sooner, and shuts it off later, but when you're looking at the track, Vallie gets a better entrance into the corner, and a better exit. So, what's happening? Obviously the traction control is modulating the actual power to the rear wheel, I think.

Something to think about. I still think that Rossi has gotten into Casey's head. We'll all have a better insight into if that's true or not, in a week or two, I suspect.

Art

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by 2000yellow360

Something to think about. I still think that Rossi has gotten into Casey's head. We'll all have a better insight into if that's true or not, in a week or two, I suspect.

I don't think we'll get the chance to find out honestly. Look at how many times we've had good straight up head to head fights in 2007 and 2008. Most likely, it will be who gets more wins (not all bad) and who carries the momentum. My guess is we will see two maybe three good races this year, and the rest will be won by comfortable margins. Gosh though, I hope I'm wrong!