What can the Sportscar community do to depose Max and Bernie?

[TWRv12]

More like can Max save Sportscars from itself.

The manufacturers are merrily destroying the sport and the ACO is doing nothing.

Imagine if the ACO ran F1. A few cars would show up in Australia, the everything would go quiet for a few races. Most would enter Monaco and then park their cars in a shed for the rest of the year.

For a start all the petrol engined cars should stay at home, till there are sensible rules that won't cost a insane amounts of money. Only cars that support the whole championship should be allowed run at the big races.

[Lazy]

You have good point. Everything is too much based around Le Mans so to say. Now maybe a change is coming with these Le Mans World Series plans (or whatever it will be called, just Intercontinental Trophy? lol). But even then some guy from ACO said Le Mans is not going to be part of that trophy/champioship.

It tells something that in 1990 Mercedes opted to SKIP Le Mans just to concentrate on the WSPC championship.

[AndrewF31]

Originally Posted by Lazy

When did that happen? (That = the threat to be as big as F1)

I think he's referring to this:

Although the Group C formula was a success, with regular crowds of 50,000 or more, 350,000 at Le Mans (better attendance than contemporary Portuguese and Spanish GP's), the FIA introduced new rules for 1991 at the behest of FIA vice president Bernie Ecclestone; 750 kg machines with contemporary normally aspirated engines, which were purpose-built 3500cc racing units. The new classification, known as Group C Category 1, was designed to mandate Formula 1 engines. Although power was generally less than existing Group C cars (around 650Bhp compared to around 750Bhp upwards) the new cars are considered to be the among the quickest sportscars ever. However, the take up of these new regulations was slow and only a handful of Category 1 cars were ready for the 1991 season. Consequently the FIA also allowed cars complying with pre-1991 Group C rules to contest the championship (as Group C Category 2 cars) during the one transitional year. They were however seriously handicapped in terms of weight, fuel allocation and grid positions. For 1991 the championship took on yet another new name, the FIA Sportscar World Championship and the new 3.5 litre rules took full effect for the 1992 championship with the old Group C cars no longer included.
The new generation of WSC racing engines, stated intent of reducing costs and providing more competition, quickly proved highly suspect, costs rose massively as works teams developed cars capable of qualifying around half way up a grand prix grid; despite 200 Kilos more weight. Manufacturers again abandoned the sportscar series, realising that they now had an engine suitable for F1 but were paying even more for development of their sportscar programs because of the more open nature of sportscar aerodynamics. In particular, Mercedes and Peugeot elected to either concentrate on or move to F1. The more exotic engines were unaffordable for teams like Spice and ADA, thus after the manufacturers left the top class of sportscar racing, the series essentially collapsed. A lack of entries meant the 1993 season was cancelled before the start of the first race.

It's wikipedia but I'm sure you could easily find another source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_S...r_Championship

Just compare the results between 1990 and 1991 to see what FIA managed to do by changing the specs: http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1990.html and http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1991.html
Field reduced by half.

Sort of what they're doing to FIA GT now. Of course, it's not as big as World Sports Car racing was in the late 80s but it's gaining some popularity seen by the grids. I mean, you look at GT1 there compared to the rest and it's really flourishing yet FIA kills it. And may kill GT2 in FIA that way. Hopefully, if the separation of GT1 and GT2 races means 12-14 car grids that end up shrinking the interest, a lot of the GT2 teams head over to LMS or something like that because it sure would be a sad thing to see some of them just evaporate into other races.

[Lazy]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

I think he's referring to this:

It's wikipedia but I'm sure you could easily find another source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_S...r_Championship

I know... I was just poking the anthill. "Bernie killed GrC, boohoo" bitterness. I do not understand how one failed rule change translates to genuine urge to kill a successful series and back then a source of income for FIA.

Just compare the results between 1990 and 1991 to see what FIA managed to do by changing the specs: http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1990.html and http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1991.html
Field reduced by half.

Yes the engine rule change turned out to be epic failure. I dont deny that. But if the series was "almost as big as F1" in every aspect (other than in just manufacturer interest) as some want to believe, then how come a change to more expensive technology created so huge issues...

Also related to the engine rules. FIA tried to set up a series called Procar in the late 80s. But it never started because only Alfa Romeo built a car. Cars would have been silhuette cars with F1 3.5 NA engines. "World engine"? Oh wait, but it cant be because it is SO obvious that FIA always wanted to kill Sportscar Championship ever since 1953...

Sort of what they're doing to FIA GT now. Of course, it's not as big as World Sports Car racing was in the late 80s but it's gaining some popularity seen by the grids. I mean, you look at GT1 there compared to the rest and it's really flourishing yet FIA kills it. And may kill GT2 in FIA that way. Hopefully, if the separation of GT1 and GT2 races means 12-14 car grids that end up shrinking the interest, a lot of the GT2 teams head over to LMS or something like that because it sure would be a sad thing to see some of them just evaporate into other races.

Unless I am mistaken its not yet 2010 and we have not seen how flourishing or bad its going to be. Altough Ratel's timing couldn't be worse (economic climate)

[Tim the Grey]

Group C had got to be BIG. I t really was threatening F1. I was around back then, and believe me, sportscrs were as big as F1...

But Bernie had no stake in Grp.C. It had to go! And so it died. Replaced by a series where Peugeot could win with an engine that had failed spectacularly in single seaters. Remember McLaren Peugeot, or Jordan Peugeot?

If Grp C had stayed, we might have sensible rules right now. Heres X amount of energy. Go as quick as you can on this power...

There were big V8s, little V8s, V12s, V6s, straight 4s, you name it...

[Lazy]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

But Bernie had no stake in Grp.C.

Do you know that for sure or do you just believe so?

I found this via Google:

Article originally written in 1990 about structure of FIA and FISA: http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00022.html

"The FIA is the owner of the rights pertaining to the World Championships," explains FISA Secretary-General Yvon Leon. "It has given the mandate to exploit the television rights to an outside organisation and a percentage of the TV rights is paid to the FIA and the FISA."

"Mr Ecclestone has been the man in charge of promoting the Formula 1 World Championship for a long time. The CSI had left a big gap and obviously people filled the gap. The President's idea was to ask Mr Ecclestone to join the FIA. He was elected a Vice-President of the FIA for commercial affairs which is a very special position. It is a position which is a little bit special. Now the promotion of all the championships is carried out through Mr Ecclestone's organisation."

It had to go! And so it died. Replaced by a series where Peugeot could win with an engine that had failed spectacularly in single seaters. Remember McLaren Peugeot, or Jordan Peugeot?

So in the end the man who "wanted to kill" part of his own business managed to "lure" only one manufacturer to F1 and that one manufacturer always sucked. To who this was a huge success?

If Grp C had stayed, we might have sensible rules right now. Heres X amount of energy. Go as quick as you can on this power...

ACO should build future regs on that idea... unfortunately looks like they rather keep tinkering with displacemetns, restrictors, boosts, fuel tank sizes and now also weights...

[Nordic]

The intial 3.5 regs did attract a good response, Merc, Jag (Ford), Mazda (Ford), Toyota, Pug, Lola Judd, Brun, BRM, Spice and Konrad all had cars running at some stage.

The debate is weather Bernie intended to then tempt them to switch to F1 at the expense of Grp C. I feel that before that happend, the 90's fell into recession and I think that accounted for the series everymuch as the Bernie effect.

What is without doubt is that without the new rules, then costs would have been less and privateers would have been thicker on the ground and the series would have been better able to withstand the downturn.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Group C had got to be BIG. I t really was threatening F1. I was around back then, and believe me, sportscrs were as big as F1...

But Bernie had no stake in Grp.C. It had to go! And so it died. Replaced by a series where Peugeot could win with an engine that had failed spectacularly in single seaters. Remember McLaren Peugeot, or Jordan Peugeot?

If Grp C had stayed, we might have sensible rules right now. Heres X amount of energy. Go as quick as you can on this power...

There were big V8s, little V8s, V12s, V6s, straight 4s, you name it...

Peugeot moved from sportscars to F1, so they failed in F1 after winning in sportscars- but was the 905's V10 the same one that later proved such a lemon for McLaren and Jordan- if so, what the hell did Peugeot do to it in the move to F1, as I don't recall it being anything other than a pretty effective (and fairly reliable) motor in the back of a 905....

I agree with you about the Group C regs though- the formula certainly brought in plenty of technical variety

[KA]

Originally Posted by Lazy

Yes the engine rule change turned out to be epic failure. I dont deny that. But if the series was "almost as big as F1" in every aspect (other than in just manufacturer interest) as some want to believe, then how come a change to more expensive technology created so huge issues...

The move to 3.5 litre rules probably looked manageable in 1989, when the optimum package for a privateer looked to be a Spice or similar with a Cosworth DFZ/DFR in the back. The trouble was, the arrival of Peugeot, and then the Jaguar XJR14 both the result of manufacturer-backed teams taking a proper look at the performance potential of the 3.5 litre/750kg ruleset, moved the game on way beyond what the privateers could compete with. The Japanese manufacturers had already taken time out to develop their 3.5l cars- and only came back when it was too late, Aston Martin were out after '89 when Ford opted to supply the HB V8 only to Jaguar, and we were left with just Peugeot, Jag and Mercedes by 1991

Originally Posted by Lazy

Also related to the engine rules. FIA tried to set up a series called Procar in the late 80s. But it never started because only Alfa Romeo built a car. Cars would have been silhuette cars with F1 3.5 NA engines. "World engine"? Oh wait, but it cant be because it is SO obvious that FIA always wanted to kill Sportscar Championship ever since 1953...

Wasn't Procar intended to be the replacement for both the WTCC and eventually Group C?

As I remember, the plan was something like it would be for manufacturer-backed teams only, and would possibly have run as a support race on GP weekends? I think I remember reading interviews with Bernie in some of the press around 1988 in which, as the VP for commercial affairs and responsible for promotion of all the FIA's World Championships, he was hugely critical of the standard of both the touring car and sportscar series and touted Procar as the answer

[Lazy]

Originally Posted by KA

Wasn't Procar intended to be the replacement for both the WTCC and eventually Group C?

Something like that maybe...

scans NOT by me, I remembered these from another forum, Motoring News 23rd March 1988:

As I remember, the plan was something like it would be for manufacturer-backed teams only, and would possibly have run as a support race on GP weekends? I think I remember reading interviews with Bernie in some of the press around 1988 in which, as the VP for commercial affairs and responsible for promotion of all the FIA's World Championships, he was hugely critical of the standard of both the touring car and sportscar series and touted Procar as the answer

There were some other weird plans too (initially at least) like no external sponsorship on the cars.

[Spyderman]

Well...It was all a mountain that turned into a molehill.
Smax got spanked, but the poison dwarf will still be around.
FiA back in charge.

[HORNDAWG]

Or so Mosley says! I think I will wait and see, as Smax has not had that good of a track record lately.



L.P.

[marcosgt]

I was a huge sportscar fan in the Group C era and they were popular, but they certainly weren't "As big as F1" - The number of people attending a sportscar race at Silverstone, Brands, Donnington or Spa was tiny compared to a GP.

Le Mans, of course, stood alone, but it always has - It's not a race, it's an 'event'!

It did seem, though, that Ecclestone was worried about the attention Gp C was getting, especially from manufacturers who he wanted to lure to his circus (he could see his wallet getting even fatter) and the 3.5 rules were a travesty.

Some said, however, that the manufacturers wanted TV coverage and the short format races were better suited to that.

I remember the first race I saw the XJR-14 in and it was an awesome race car, but it somehow lacked the appeal of the 'proper' Group C cars.

Cheers.

[KA]

Originally Posted by marcosgt

I was a huge sportscar fan in the Group C era and they were popular, but they certainly weren't "As big as F1" - The number of people attending a sportscar race at Silverstone, Brands, Donnington or Spa was tiny compared to a GP.

The attendance figures I've seen quoted for the UK races, Brands, Silverstone and Donington seem to vary around the 20-30k bracket- I remember Brands in '89 being pretty busy, though as you say, nothing like a GP crowd- this was, of course, the season after TWR's first Le Mans win, which wouldn't have done any harm...

[Lazy]

Originally Posted by KA

The attendance figures I've seen quoted for the UK races, Brands, Silverstone and Donington seem to vary around the 20-30k bracket- I remember Brands in '89 being pretty busy, though as you say, nothing like a GP crowd- this was, of course, the season after TWR's first Le Mans win, which wouldn't have done any harm...

This site lists attendances for most races:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo_wcm.html

Numbers seem to vary a lot...