[WTCC] Race 11 & 12 - Brno (CZE), 21st June 2009

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

And what about Tarquini hitting Zanardi while coming back from a mistake in a corner?

I already commented on that on TCTs forum. They need to start black flagging that SOB.

Don't take the HernÃ*ndez-Porteiro think into account, ROAL are a works team and we are independents, so no team orders.

I take them into account as well. Their childish rivalry directly contributed to 2 SEATs finishing on the Podium. If they would sensibly have worked together for the first 5 laps they could have passed both 2 slower Seats, opened up a gap, and then fought for who would be #1 and #2. Im sure Yvan and Jordi is still laughing at their incompetence.

BTW, to talk about happy stuff, have you seen Postiglione finally getting to grips with the BMW?

Yupp, he was right up there on pace for most of the weekend. It's really good that we have that many competitive guys in the privateer category this year.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I mean, who wants to watch cars following each other around not attempting to make a move?

I agree I'd rather not see it become a procession but then don't start crying about car inequality when SEAT wins the championship again. If anything the BMW is probably now the faster car anyhow.

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Don't take the HernÃ*ndez-Porteiro think into account, ROAL are a works team and we are independents, so no team orders.

Why not, I'm sure Coronel was told to hold back and not overtake Muller for 8th in race one. Henandez and Porteiro just needed to work together for the first half of the race to build a gap away from the two SEATs, then start fighting over the win once they were clear. Of course given the history between the two perhaps that's easier aid than done.

[Hazard]

It was a great set of races - but SEAT easily showing the way in terms of who is racing as a team.

Tarquini's collision with Zanardi however was abymismal. I'm amazed to find there's been no penalty assessed yet.

[Icebaby]

Originally Posted by stedevil

OMG...

Farfus managed 10 races without losing his head, but on the 11th, he falls back into old habits and takes himself (+ a bunch of BMW and Chevies) out. That move could easily be the one that loses him this years drivers title..

Could even lose him his drive, BMW may regret not putting Thompson in the car in 09 who would be a safer pair of hands than an eratic Farfus.

[THIM]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

And what about Tarquini hitting Zanardi while coming back from a mistake in a corner?

Well, Zanardi's crash is disappointing indeed, but it's hard to blame Tarquini - he didn't even leave the track, just the racing line.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by THIM

Well, Zanardi's crash is disappointing indeed, but it's hard to blame Tarquini - he didn't even leave the track, just the racing line.

When you come back from outside the racing line, you have to look in the mirrors, that's one of the reasons they're there for! You can't just get back into the racing line and if there's someone racing there you say 'ooops, I was just getting back to the racing line'. If you make a mistake, you have to fully pay for it, and let the guy who's coming up faster than you go. Certainly not take him out.
As for HernÃ*ndez-Porteiro, I can't tell you exactly the way it works but there are no orders for the independents to let the works drivers go. Sergio wouldn't have waited 5 laps to pass Félix, cause Porteiro is never easy to pass, even if he's slower. It ended up badly for Proteam, as we lost a likely podium finish, but I fully understand HernÃ*ndez attacking flat out.
I don't think Coronel was told to lay back. He had Vito putting pressure on him, and even the slightest mistake would have meant Postiglione passing him and perhaps Yvan. Also, had he reached the 8th place, he would have had the chance to challenge Félix, which eventually he couldn't do. It's too tight a battle in the independents to listen to the works teams asking to hold back. Remember privateers pay to get into the car, so they will want a result if they deserve it. It's not just a badge on the car that gives you the need to let the works drivers past...

[FIRE]

The new independent points system makes it less likely they let pass factory drivers.

Additional points will be awarded in all the Championship rounds according to the following scale:
• 1 additional point for each pole position set (*) in the Independents’ class
• 1 additional point for each fastest lap set in the Independents’ class
• 3 additional points for each point scored in the WTCC overall classification
(*) during the qualifying session

[werner]

Indeed. It is those overall championship points that give Porteiro a very large lead in the privateers championship now.

@ Stedevil: You may be right about Porteiro and Hernandez, who might have been better of if they waited with fighting after they had accomplisched a gap. But to be honest, I don't know many examples of autoracers who work together when they are driving at another team. Do you know examples where that has happened?
In other sports it is not unheard of though. Take for instance cycling, where it is very common.

[Robbe]

I know that last year Priaulx and Hernandez worked together in qualifying to get the slipstream advantage.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by werner

I don't know many examples of autoracers who work together when they are driving at another team. Do you know examples where that has happened?
In other sports it is not unheard of though. Take for instance cycling, where it is very common.

So our conclusion here is that cyclists are a lot smarter than drivers?

[werner]

Well, I am a cyclist myself, so untill I have the money to do autoracing I would say yes.

It might also have something to do with the fact that the average cyclerace takes many hours, so you it is much easier to make an agreement. Especially since you are actually able to communicate by speaking.
And with the fact that working together is not usefull sometimes as in autoracing, but always a nescesity to win a race.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Robbe

I know that last year Priaulx and Hernandez worked together in qualifying to get the slipstream advantage.

It was a personal agreement between the two, and it happened only in Imola.
Actually, as werner said, cyclists have another way of working, it's a whole different sport. In motorsports, all you have to do is push, unless you have your teammate by your side, which makes it all different.

[cg7aa]

Could it be that Farfus' problem was/is occasional poor situational awareness? I'm inclined to think that is the case. I think he has matured over the years so I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm in no way saying the move was clever not at all but it looked to my untrained eyes that he perhaps intended to move over to stay a little bit on the outside line and swing into the first turn rather than being tucked up tightly going into the first turn. What made it a disastrous move was that he completely failed to take into account the fact that someone might be where he wants to be.

My two cents.

[helterskelter]

I guess mirrors are there for a reason... Nor can you expect to change your line at the start and think that everyone will brake to welcome your decision. Not that Priaulx or Larini had time to break, though!