BMW to quit the WTCC?

[touringlegend]

How do you know there'll be none then Sodemo ? (when the new rules come in.)

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

How do you know there'll be none then Sodemo ? (when the new rules come in.)

Oh ok, under the new rules.

What are the new rules?

Are there a set of regs published?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Would there be much point in entering a works outfit when there will be no other manufacturers?

No one knows what Sweden and Denmark will do. If they switch to NGTC instead of S2000 a NGTC-customer programme might be worthwile for BMW as well.

[MatthewC]

Why would they want to leave they are doing so well!?

And who would replace them? And of course, where would Muller, Priaulx, Farfus etc go? I personally cannot see them in SEATs!!

[MikeD]

In case BMW or any other manufacturer leaves the WTCC, could it then be possible that WTCC will adapt the M2 system from the WRC?

The M2 system from WRC means that Citroën and Ford can enter more than one manufacturer team, as long as they compete at least 8 of the 12 WRC events.

Currently WRC has 5 manufacturer teams that can all score manu points:

1.) Citroën works team
2.) Ford works team
3.) Stobart Ford (M2 team)
4.) Citroën junior team (M2 team)
5.) Munchi's Ford (M2 team)

Could we perhaps end up with 2-3 manu teams from the remaining manufacturers in the WTCC? - or will BMW remove all cars from the grid if they leave?

[FIRE]

I don't exactly understand what you mean. In WTCC manufacturers can enter more than 1 factory team (see e.g. BMW) or enter more than 2 cars (see all manufacturer teams).

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I don't exactly understand what you mean. In WTCC manufacturers can enter more than 1 factory team (see e.g. BMW) or enter more than 2 cars (see all manufacturer teams).

Ok, let take an example with BMW in WTCC vs. Ford in WRC.

a.) In WTCC BMW's best 2 placed cars will count towards the manufacturers championship. After the 2 best placed BMWs, then no other BMW can score manu points.

b.) In WRC the 2 nominated works Fords will score the manu points for that Ford team. Then the 2 best Stobart Fords will score manu points for Stobart Ford. The the 2 best placed Munchi's Fords will score manu points for Munchi's Ford.

...and so on.

So if the WTCC on has 2-3 manufacturers in the future it could be an idea to let the manufaturers add 3 manu teams each, which could individually score manu points. An example could be:

BMW Manufacturer team 1:
Priaulx & Farfus

BMW Manufacturer team 2:
Hernandez & Zanardi

BMW Manufacturer team 3:
Muller & Porteiro

...and so on.

[werner]

Isn't there already a teams-championship? Wich would be the same.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by werner

Isn't there already a teams-championship? Wich would be the same.

No there isn't - only in the Independents Trophy championship.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Ok, let take an example with BMW in WTCC vs. Ford in WRC.

a.) In WTCC BMW's best 2 placed cars will count towards the manufacturers championship. After the 2 best placed BMWs, then no other BMW can score manu points.

b.) In WRC the 2 nominated works Fords will score the manu points for that Ford team. Then the 2 best Stobart Fords will score manu points for Stobart Ford. The the 2 best placed Munchi's Fords will score manu points for Munchi's Ford.

...and so on.

So if the WTCC on has 2-3 manufacturers in the future it could be an idea to let the manufaturers add 3 manu teams each, which could individually score manu points. An example could be:

BMW Manufacturer team 1:
Priaulx & Farfus

BMW Manufacturer team 2:
Hernandez & Zanardi

BMW Manufacturer team 3:
Muller & Porteiro

...and so on.

This system would hurt the championship IMO and I'm explaining you why. Take into consideration this year:SEAT and BMW have 5 works cars in the field plus a number of independent cars, while Chevy only have 3 car and no independents. SEAT have 2 teams for those cars, BMW have 3 national teams and even the Italian and the Spanish car in BMW Team Italy-Spain seem to be funded by the local firms (Zanardi's by BMW Italia and HernÃ*ndez by BMW Espana). Chevy only have one team, RML, and 3 cars. If you let each car take points in the manufacturers' championship, even if BMW goes out, SEAT can easily decide to put on the track 2 more cars and make sure that they win the championship, while those who don't have such a big automotive group behind them (eg. Chevrolet Europe and Lada) will have to race for the drivers' crown only, which means the manufacturers' championship wouldn't make sense anymore, it would be a joke! The idea is good in theory, but the WRC is much different from the WTCC. Personally, I don't think BMW will quit, anyway. I've heard rumours that they're already studying the 1.6 turbo engine. If the rumours are true, there's no reason to believe that they're developing an engine they will not use, or that they think they're going to sell cars in a championship in which they don't field any works cars!

[werner]

Ehh, no. In my most humble opinion you got it all wrong. It is the other way around: a system inwich teams can of lets say maximum 2 cars can win the title, instead of a manufacturer that can field up to 6 cars gives better opportunities for a brand that only can enter 2 or 3 cars.
That is because in the current situation, if something goes wrong with the 2 best drivers of a brand, the other 4 can still win a lot of points for the manufacturer. A manufacturer that only has a few cars does not have that opportunity. In the proposed team-based championship on the other hand, when the 2 best drivers of a brand have problems, their failure to get a lot of points can not be turned around by the other drivers of the manufacturer, since they don't belong to the same team anymore.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

This system would hurt the championship IMO and I'm explaining you why. Take into consideration this year:SEAT and BMW have 5 works cars in the field plus a number of independent cars, while Chevy only have 3 car and no independents. SEAT have 2 teams for those cars, BMW have 3 national teams and even the Italian and the Spanish car in BMW Team Italy-Spain seem to be funded by the local firms (Zanardi's by BMW Italia and HernÃ*ndez by BMW Espana). Chevy only have one team, RML, and 3 cars. If you let each car take points in the manufacturers' championship, even if BMW goes out, SEAT can easily decide to put on the track 2 more cars and make sure that they win the championship, while those who don't have such a big automotive group behind them (eg. Chevrolet Europe and Lada) will have to race for the drivers' crown only, which means the manufacturers' championship wouldn't make sense anymore, it would be a joke! The idea is good in theory, but the WRC is much different from the WTCC. Personally, I don't think BMW will quit, anyway. I've heard rumours that they're already studying the 1.6 turbo engine. If the rumours are true, there's no reason to believe that they're developing an engine they will not use, or that they think they're going to sell cars in a championship in which they don't field any works cars!

Sorry helterskelter, but i disagree, simply because last year and this year in the WRC, it has been the Manufacturer (Citroën) with the fewest teams and cars that have won the Manu title....simply because they are better and have the better drivers in the main team. So it can be done, and if BMW does leave (even though I hope you are right) I am sure FIA will introduce these rules. After all they are trying to make WTCC and WRC more or less the same (except for the racing/surface part).

[helterskelter]

I am sorry guys, I hadn't understood the system before, I went through it again more carefully and understood correctly, I believe, I thought you could choose how many cars to field in a single team, which made it weird, of course! People would have easily put all their cars in the same team and then imagine what would have happened in Puebla last year, with SEAT taking a 1-6!!!!
I have to be honest, I don't understand much about WRC, but I hear that there is quite a bit of difference in terms of performances between Citroen and Ford. With all the ballast thing coming in and all the different situations including the track (that can suit a particular car, like Monza for the Leòn TDi, Oschersleben for the BMW 320si and Marrakech for the new Cruze, though we do remember the waivers and the no-ballast situation) I don't know if this could be effective or not.
Also, I think you can easily 'cheat' with this system when racing on track, and it can also affect the drivers' standings. Imagine coming to the last race in Macau and, say, BMW Team 1 (taken from MikeD's example) is fighting against SEAT Team 1 (Yvan and Tarquini). In the drivers' standings Huff is fighting against Yvan Muller and they have an 8 points difference. If Jorg is leading the race, Huff is in 2nd, Priaulx is in 3rd and Farfus is in 4th and Yvan is 8th, Yvan would be the World Champion. But, if BMW has to score points for its Team 1, they will ask Jorg to settle for 4th, letting Huff through and taking 3 more points to win the manu title. Huff wins, he's the world champion and the championship is completely screwed. With the situation we are in now, this BMW strategy wouldn't absolutely work, as they would actually lose points in the manu championship. These are my doubts about this system. We've already had enough team orders this year and, especially dropping a triple world champion from 4th to 9th in Porto was disgusting. I wouldn't want a system that encourages that kind of stuff!

[werner]

It is a bit far fetched, but it could happen like you describe it. The easy solution would be just to maximize the number of factorycars a manufacturer can enter to a certain amount, say 3 or 4. But to keep things interesting, there must done more to make sure there will be enough independent drivers, both qualitatively and quantitatively.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by werner

It is a bit far fetched, but it could happen like you describe it. The easy solution would be just to maximize the number of factorycars a manufacturer can enter to a certain amount, say 3 or 4. But to keep things interesting, there must done more to make sure there will be enough independent drivers, both qualitatively and quantitatively.

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense to put a limit on the number of works cars available. What might happen would be that, like in 2002 with Priaulx, an actually works car is listed as an independant, which means no chance for real independants to take the crown in their own championship. It's a bit obvious to say, but the best solution would be having more than 4 manufacturers!

[Asa]

If BMW quits WTCC, then Priaulx, Muller, Farfus etc can join the LMS and take part in Le Mans with a BMW M3 GT2, which is racing already in the ALMS.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Asa

If BMW quits WTCC, then Priaulx, Muller, Farfus etc can join the LMS and take part in Le Mans with a BMW M3 GT2, which is racing already in the ALMS.

It is more than likely that some of them will actually do the ALMS, as Priaulx said at the end of last year. He was already ready to pack his things and go overseas!

[FIRE]

BMW privateers have not to worry about their future:

BMW's discontent with the current state of the World Touring Car Championships rules have been going on for a good while. Still the German manufacturer has not confirmed if they are going to continue next year.
"Actually, the first question is whether we are going to provide support to our customers or not: There will always be a BMW available for our wide basis of customers to buy and compete in," said BMW Motorsport boss Mario Theissen to TouringCarTimes.com.

"As for us being there with a works project, we haven't decided yet. But I would like to clarify once again that our customers will always receive our support and a BMW racing car will always be available to race in the WTCC."

For 2011 the will switch engine rules, introducing turbo charged 1.6 liter engines, a decision that Theissen supports.

"This goes beyond WTCC. It's a kind of global engine, suitable for many different motorsport categories. It makes absolute sense to try and use an engine that can be easily adapted to different forms of competition.

On the official DTM forum someone posted some quotes from Motorsport Aktuell about the 2011 DTM engines. According Dr. Ullrich there could be 2 engine types:
- Current 4L V8 normal aspirated (Mercedes wanted 5L V8 engines because of more power under lesser stress)
- 4 cylinder turbo "world engine", which could be used also in other series


I assume this "world engine" is the same as the 1.6L WTCC engine.

[duke_toaster]

Supposedly the world engine will be either a 1.6 (for up to 450hp) or a 2.0 (for over) four-pot.

I'd like to borrow the brain of the person that suggested 220hp+ 1600cc turbos, a friend of mine is trying to build an idiot.

However, a 2000cc turbo lump with differing rev limits, boost pressures and "funky" bolt-on parts for the higher levels could be useful, from WTCC (450hp in my opinion ... not with FWD though) to F3 (240hp). 1600ccs wouldn't last as long between rebuilds, which isn't that good for cost cutting. Besides, two litre four-pots are more common than 1600ccs.

[The Tour]

I have to say I am really looking forward to seeing Priaulx back in a sportscar race, but I am seriously worried about what that may mean for their WTCC programme?

As long as all the cars are sold and raced by privateers then the numbers should remain but the overall quality will take a big nose dive. :-(

[Robbe]

With the rumours of SEAT reducing works support, having the cars run by Sunred and Oreca and financed by Repsol (see italiaracing.net), this could be even good for WTCC - we'd lose team orders.
Proteam, Wiechers and Engstler are top teams, and with good drivers they could fight for victories - and why shouldn't ROAL for example continue to run their cars? Zanardi will find sponsors, and Hernandez pays for his drive anyway.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Besides, two litre four-pots are more common than 1600ccs.

Well world wide 1,6L is immensely more common than 2L engines. In fact many models world wide dont even have 2L offerings at all. Just look eg at the Asian market. Even Lada doesnt even have a 2L engine. Thus in your chase for a brain for your friends idiot, find one that suggests 2L engines, since those are already rare as well as steadily decreasing in modern cars.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Robbe

Proteam, Wiechers and Engstler are top teams, and with good drivers they could fight for victories - and why shouldn't ROAL for example continue to run their cars? Zanardi will find sponsors, and Hernandez pays for his drive anyway.

Thanks for mentioning us among the top teams, on behalf of the whole team.
As for Sergio paying for his drive, I feel like I have to remind everyone that this is just a rumour that he denies.