WTCC Race 19 & 20 - Imola (ITA), 20th September 2009 - Page 2

redshoes · 21 Sep 2009, 14:28 (Ref:2545077)

If Coronel had slowed down there was a good chance he would have got bogged down and stuck in the gravel. Once through he couldn't just stop and wait for everyone in there crash to catch up and overtake him.

Andy77 · 21 Sep 2009, 18:16 (Ref:2545283)

This discussion now sounds like the 1st corner inident during the Spa race when Raikkönen took a line way off any racing circuit only to find himself in second and eventually winning from that position.
I am with Helterskelter here. Coronel cut the chicane short and got an advantage just like Raikkönen did at Spa earlier this month. And anyone who says that this isn't compareable should take d'Astes move at Spa back in the day as a precedence. If Coronel only did the chicane cutting to avoid an accident then what did D'Aste back then, please?

There aren't clear guidelines within the FIA world championships as there isn't any consistency in decisions it seems.

Dudu · 21 Sep 2009, 19:53 (Ref:2545376)

The WTCC is losing any kind of credibility. What happened this weekend in Imola is a complete shame for the sport, and this only because it is ruled by people who don't care about equity and have a very small knowledge of motorsport...

Coronel clearly cut the chicane accelerating which let him go from P16 on the grid to P4 after the first corner.... After this, people from Wiechers and Proteam went to meet the race director who did a report to the stewards but they took no action against him... D'aste, Ensgtler and Porteiro have now lost the indy championship because the stewards simply don't care about the indy championship. They always penalize the indy drivers when they collide with officials but the opposite is never true and they are clearly not aware of the consequences of their decisions for the indy class championship.

Why not penalize Coronel whereas D'aste lost P1 in Spa 2005???? In Spa 2005, d'Aste accelerated to cut the bus stop chicane when a big crash happened there gaining a lot of positions but Giovanardi who was not involved in this crash get back his P1. What is different here ? Porteiro had to stop his car at 20km/h because there was a lot of cars crashing in front of him but he was not involved in the accident whereas Coronel took the easy solution accelerating like hell!!!

There is a well known concept in every normal law system which is called jurisprudence. Why is it not applied for WTCC ????

Everybody in WTCC should be aware of one thing: next season there will be probably less than 15 official cars on the grid (seat new boss wants to stop WTCC, BMW will probably reduce the number of official cars and so on), then the only way to survive for WTCC is to bring private teams. This weekend in Imola is the clear demonstration that they are not aware of that...

Then where is the equity when every overtaking manoeuvre ends with a crash?? This weekend was a complete destruction derby and made WTCC losing again some credibility...

Video of Spa 2005: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance...nnexe-des_auto

stedevil · 22 Sep 2009, 04:14 (Ref:2545664)

The stewards dont care about independents? Hell, they dont care what the factory drivers do either. Tarquini once again got away with dirty driving. Bumping Huff in the rear in one corner to make him go wide and then send him off track in the next? WTF? Hope that dirty old ******* doesnt become WDC, he certainly doesnt deserve it.

Dudu · 22 Sep 2009, 07:37 (Ref:2545725)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

The stewards dont care about independents? Hell, they dont care what the factory drivers do either. Tarquini once again got away with dirty driving. Bumping Huff in the rear in one corner to make him go wide and then send him off track in the next? WTF? Hope that dirty old ******* doesnt become WDC, he certainly doesnt deserve it.

Yes you are right, as I said, any overtake finish with a collision....It is the spririt of the championship that is completely wrong now......

Now another example of decision taken without any interest for the private teams: all front wheel drive will have -20 kg for the end of the championship .... First, why have they done the compensation weight rule at the beginning of the season ???

Then, what happens with the private BMW which are obliged to have the same compensation weight than Farfus and Priaulx who do 45 test days per year whereas the independents teams have to keep the same engine for 6 races because they have no money to rebuild it.... Once again, the decision will be in favour of Coronel who already have 45 kilos less than Porteiro, D'aste and Engstler !!!! I don't think the difference of time between private BMW and Coronel derserves this type of decision.... Coronel is the only driver to do his own ballast since he has a fuel seat and there is no other good driver to drive this car for compensation weight..where is equity ?? The FIA care about officials and that's it...but when Seat will have stopped (I heard that Yvan Muller has signed with Chevrolet for 2010 because Seat will stop!) and BMW will have only 3 official cars what are they going to do ?

werner · 22 Sep 2009, 10:25 (Ref:2545825)

Coronel is the only driver to do his own ballast since he has a fuel seat and there is no other good driver to drive this car for compensation weight..where is equity ??

The other drivers should have bought a petrol-seat themselves. IIRC on this board we all saw these issues coming as soon as we heard of these rules. Until today I am surprised that there is noone driving a private Lacetti, Honda Accord or Alfa.

Dudu · 22 Sep 2009, 10:42 (Ref:2545842)

The other drivers should have bought a petrol-seat themselves. IIRC on this board we all saw these issues coming as soon as we heard of these rules. Until today I am surprised that there is noone driving a private Lacetti, Honda Accord or Alfa.[/QUOTE]

You see the problem with the fan view, not with the team view, you must take into account the economical parameter. You cannot change cars every year since the investment is huge. Every independent team has 3 or 4 year old cars and engines which is a very big handicap compared to the officials but they definitely cannot switch from one brand to the other every year. One winning independent team was very close to buy Lacetti for 2009 but they stopped when they saw the price of the cars, engines and when they calculated the price of the spare parts stock to be bought.

The fuel Seat has a disavantage with its engine which is not very powerful but they now clearly have a huge weight advantage which is enough, they don't need more (we cannot say that the Seat chassis is bad!!).

Motorsport is mainly a business for private teams, if you don't have performance, you lose customers and the teams will no longer remain in a championship where their business is impossible.

werner · 22 Sep 2009, 11:31 (Ref:2545892)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudu

The other drivers should have bought a petrol-seat themselves. IIRC on this board we all saw these issues coming as soon as we heard of these rules. Until today I am surprised that there is noone driving a private Lacetti, Honda Accord or Alfa.

You see the problem with the fan view, not with the team view, you must take into account the economical parameter. You cannot change cars every year since the investment is huge. Every independent team has 3 or 4 year old cars and engines which is a very big handicap compared to the officials but they definitely cannot switch from one brand to the other every year. One winning independent team was very close to buy Lacetti for 2009 but they stopped when they saw the price of the cars, engines and when they calculated the price of the spare parts stock to be bought.

Wiechers, Pro-team and Engstler all have brand new BMW's. Teams do not only choose cars based only on wich car is quikest. They also have to take into account factors such as costs, service or commercial opportunities. It is no secret that BMW's motorsportdepartment offers an exelent customerservice. I'm sure that is one of the main reasons that there are so many private BMW's in the championship. I would say a team that manages to get a quick car on the grid without great service of a manufacturer, wich in this case is any team that does not have a BMW, has qualities that should be rewarded. And they are, nothing wrong with that.

Dudu · 22 Sep 2009, 11:57 (Ref:2545911)

Quote:

Originally Posted by werner

Wiechers, Pro-team and Engstler all have brand new BMW's.

I'm well enough informated to tell you that proteam has 2007 chassis and Engstler 2008..... Please do not invent things you don't know.

Icebaby · 22 Sep 2009, 19:59 (Ref:2546232)

Thompson really is a class act in his ability to put an average car at the front, he did wonders for Dynamics taking a few wins in BTCC and has now moved a car near the back of the field to the front.

I thought Imola was a great couple of races and better than the BTCC this weekend although i agree the independants get a raw deal, Boardman did another good job but suffers far to much barging from others.

We now have 4 manufactuers able to run close and thats great news for us all.

werner · 22 Sep 2009, 20:38 (Ref:2546264)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudu

I'm well enough informated to tell you that proteam has 2007 chassis and Engstler 2008..... Please do not invent things you don't know.

Oh, right. But I think my point still stands: Coronels team is rightly rewarded for being able to run a car from a manufacturer that offers less service compared to BMW.

Dudu · 23 Sep 2009, 08:57 (Ref:2546474)

Quote:

Originally Posted by werner

Oh, right. But I think my point still stands: Coronels team is rightly rewarded for being able to run a car from a manufacturer that offers less service compared to BMW.

Coronel has the same support than BMW customers: they have a motorist on each track, they rent the engines to Seat directly, he has the same car than Seat officials except the engine....

One other capital thing: don't forget that Sunred was an official team last year!!! Sunred boss is an ex engineer of Official Seat team... No surprise why they run the car for the Seat Eurocup winner... Sunred is much more "official" than Proteam Engstler or Wiechers....Don't forget also that Coronel was sponsorised directly by Seat Holland!

The only service that offers BMW in addition of Seat is the spare parts distribution that is done by a special service but nothing else...

I really don't see why they get a special advantage for the last races. Even more if you consider Coronel won Okayama race 2 in 2008!

helterskelter · 23 Sep 2009, 22:10 (Ref:2547008)

Dudu, you are well informed, maybe I even understand who you are. You're absolutely right about Coronel. He is a great driver and has a great team, but he has some advantages. I'm talking about my team: normally we're off the pace compared to the works BMWs (which is absolutely normal) and yet we're only -15kgs from them.
Our cars are much older than the works BMWs, who are built year by year (that's right, we have 2007-built cars). We don't have the new facelift and our cars are slightly different from the works ones, and yet we get their same weight. If you calculate the weights based on the indepdendent BMWs performances, we're at the Leòn Tfsi level (depending on the track and conditions, of course), but we're 35 kgs heavier than them. You may say that we should switch to the sequential to get Alex's weight, but then we get a + 45kg (30 kgs for the sequential plus the 15 kgs taken off for the 'independents should be lighter' rule), and if Alex and an indy BMW gets good performances (eg Félix in Brno) we're heavier than the works BMWs, in the end!
Coronel has Seat engineers with him, tested with Seat Sport during the winter and the car is still developed by Seat as a customer programme, so the support is absolutely the same. Glad that you reminded everyone d'Aste-Spa, when he did the same thing Tom did now and got penalized.
I don't understand what's written in the decision, actually: considering the chaotic circumstances? Are the 10 drivers that were ahead of Coronel some kind of wizards, going through the corner, while the Dutchman had no room to do the same? Or are they stupid, as it is obvious that you can cut a corner when there's an accident going on? So, as for the stewards' decision, we understand that it is possible to cut a corner and earn 10 places if there's an accident going on.
Imagine everyone doing the same thing, going through the gravel: what would have happened? I don't want to imagine that.
Anyway, werner, I have to say I don't agree with the 'thy should have bought a petrol Seat' thing: the spirit of the championship is to enable everyone to have the same chances of winning in different cars, not forcing someone who wants to win to buy a certain car. It's like telling BMW that if they want to win they have to change their engines, their gearboxes or whatever. This is not Formula One, we have equalization here and it must mean something...

werner · 24 Sep 2009, 13:44 (Ref:2547339)

I agree that the Sunred-team is somewhat on the edge of either being private or manufacturer. And I can see the fact that Coronel has an advantage that he is the only top-driver racing the petrol Seat.
But I still have the question: why couldn't Wiechers, Engstler or Proteam not buy (secondhand) Chevy's or Seat's? Their BMW's must have a resellvalue that is somewhat similar compared to cars of the same age from other brands. And the rules where written quite a while in advance of the season IIRC.

Dudu · 24 Sep 2009, 16:04 (Ref:2547405)

Quote:

Originally Posted by werner

I agree that the Sunred-team is somewhat on the edge of either being private or manufacturer. And I can see the fact that Coronel has an advantage that he is the only top-driver racing the petrol Seat.
But I still have the question: why couldn't Wiechers, Engstler or Proteam not buy (secondhand) Chevy's or Seat's? Their BMW's must have a resellvalue that is somewhat similar compared to cars of the same age from other brands. And the rules where written quite a while in advance of the season IIRC.

Because it is a half million of Euros (minimum!) investment and private team like Proteam cannot do it....they cannot even rebuild their engines when they wish...

This year proteam did half day of test in valencia after tha race...that's it...there is two different championships, the FIA must understand that and put a different ballast for private BMW. In 2009 only, Priaulx did 40 test days! And the private BMW have only 15 kg less than him..where is equity?

helterskelter · 24 Sep 2009, 20:42 (Ref:2547586)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudu

Because it is a half million of Euros (minimum!) investment and private team like Proteam cannot do it....they cannot even rebuild their engines when they wish...

This year proteam did half day of test in valencia after tha race...that's it...there is two different championships, the FIA must understand that and put a different ballast for private BMW. In 2009 only, Priaulx did 40 test days! And the private BMW have only 15 kg less than him..where is equity?

Exactly. But I'd like to point out something else, apart from what Dudu says, which is an absolutely spot on point of view IMO: why do teams have to be forced to change cars if they want to win?
Why should BMW, who has a 40 years customer support history, be disadvantaged by the rules in favour of the Seats? Why should teams sell the cars they can run (and therefore sell as a package to customers), and they know very well, and start over with a new car, which includes learning, testing and spending a lot of money and human resources doing a job that is absolutely useless. What if the FIA changes the ballast rules again next year and the most competitive car is a BMW again? Do SunRed and Colak have to buy BMWs?
I repeat, the concept behind the championship is equalization, everyone must have the same chances to win with different equipment, and then win the one who is better in exploiting his own package. I believe BMW always had the max ballast, and the Leòn Tfsi always had the minimum. Yet, we put in the same efforts, make so many sacrifices (all of us) in order to reach the title, and then the ballast stops us. Why?
The FIA's job is not making the Wtcc a one-make series, it's to give everyone the same opportunities, or the championship will die because these years are really hard and nobody is capable of investing three quarters of a million to develop a new car.

awrb · 24 Sep 2009, 21:41 (Ref:2547625)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helterskelter

if the FIA changes the ballast rules again next year and the most competitive car is a BMW again? Do SunRed and Colak have to buy BMWs?

No. But the rules this year showed before the season started that the SEAT TFSi would have an advantage in this respect. So teams decided what they wanted to do based on this.

It is impossible to make the series totally equal to everyone. With RWD vs FWD, new vs old, etc. someone will always feel they've got a raw deal in some respect. I'm sure SUNRED think that there is some advantage the BMW teams have unfairly. It happens in every team.

The rules are the rules, so the BMW teams need to get their heads down and improve their cars, without the whinging.

helterskelter · 26 Sep 2009, 00:39 (Ref:2548388)

Quote:

Originally Posted by awrb

No. But the rules this year showed before the season started that the SEAT TFSi would have an advantage in this respect. So teams decided what they wanted to do based on this.

It is impossible to make the series totally equal to everyone. With RWD vs FWD, new vs old, etc. someone will always feel they've got a raw deal in some respect. I'm sure SUNRED think that there is some advantage the BMW teams have unfairly. It happens in every team.

The rules are the rules, so the BMW teams need to get their heads down and improve their cars, without the whinging.

The ballast rules were released shortly before the cars were shipped to Curitiba. Talking about Proteam, it's pretty unrealistic to think that we could have told Félix that he had to learn a new car and drive it for the first time in Curitiba because the Leòn Tfsi would be the fastest car from the 3rd meeting on. We have to look at the reality, not the theory. Maybe a limit of this sport is that it's hard to understand how much of an investment it takes to take part in the series, especially running a car for the first year. And you can't switch car brands each year, you need to stick wie brand in order to keep good relationships with your manufacturer. Nothing to say about SunRed, but who would ha received more support in your opinion between them and Proteam (ALWAYS with BMW, just switching to Seat) if we had bought 2 Leòn Tfsis?
We all know it is difficult to find a balance, but in the end having a 45kg difference between the two top models of the championship is not the best way to go in that direction. We are absolutely open anyway, it would be great to hear some of SunRed's voices in order to understand their problems, too!

stedevil · 14 Oct 2009, 21:25 (Ref:2561564)

Just a small input here, if a BMW team would like to keep to brand, spare parts, knowledge, etc etc but still not have the factory team penalty weight, all they would have had to do is race with an E46 instead of an E90.

If you insist on having latest & greatest equipment equal to the factory team, then obviously you should have the factory weight penalty as well. The option to use an E46 instead was a realistic alternative for all BMW privateers even economically since there are plenty of those around sitting in garages.

werner · 15 Oct 2009, 11:52 (Ref:2561894)

Would it be competitive? It is pretty old by now (at least for motorsportstandards)

THIM · 15 Oct 2009, 16:35 (Ref:2562070)

Then, what about 120i ? Most parts could be addapted.

stedevil · 15 Oct 2009, 18:04 (Ref:2562126)

Not older than the Accord last year or the Alpha the year before that, and those cars where competing in the factory class without -60kg.

Or as Thim sais, the 120.

In any case, however you look at it, there are options for teams wanting to stick with BMW without having to use exactly the 320si E90.

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