Should there be a rule for being deliberately slow?? Massa/ Button.

[Gilles lives!]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Oh... every year and each race we hear that sort of thing about him, that's what is predictable.

I don't believe the Ferrari is as bad as he makes it look, IMO.

[Born Racer]

Regarding the thread question, I would like one if it was to do with helping your team-mate (and I'm against team orders, which are no legal), but whilst I don't think team orders are that hard to police, this would be, particularly if you drop your place just a little.

It should also be bore in mind that by going slowly, the guy behind in some respects has a better chance to overtake, so it's a risk on the part of the slower driver.

As for Button, it was screamingly obvious (I would've screamed at the telly if it hadn't been early in the morning) that he had to give the place back. Martin Whitmarsh was being way too dogmatic with his point on the BBC Forum about waiting for the stewards to give their opinion, because we all know not to wait for that or even trust it if it is forthcoming.

[newlaprecord]

Originally Posted by Gilles lives!

Predictable, unattractive, defensive driving from Massa, but everyone seems happy with it........except me ! I can't see him lasting out the year at Ferrari on that form I'm afraid.

Like the previous poster (Corbus?) said defensive driving is a skill. I enjoyed it, its a part of racing, hanging on to your position no matter what, it just show how bad you want it.

Alonso said it in a recent interview that there arnt many drivers in F1 who are faster than Massa and (despite his obvious reason behind saying such thing) I think he said it right. Hamilton and Vettel would most likely beat Massa, but the likes of Webber, Button, Rosberg would match him at best I think. So i dont see it in a million year why Ferrari would get rid of him at this stage. It's totally unrealistic. He is a great solid number 2 driver, you couldnt possibly name a better replacement at this moment of time. (prehaps if and when Kubica recovers)

[newlaprecord]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

... Martin Whitmarsh was being way too dogmatic with his point on the BBC Forum about waiting for the stewards to give their opinion, because we all know not to wait for that or even trust it if it is forthcoming.

Appearently Button told them on the radio that he was ahead of Massa going into the corner and the team took his word for it. The reality is he wasnt ahead. He tried to fool his own team and that's what delayed his penalty (otherwise I think the team woulda asked him to give the position back straight away)

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by newlaprecord

Appearently Button told them on the radio that he was ahead of Massa going into the corner and the team took his word for it. The reality is he wasnt ahead. He tried to fool his own team and that's what delayed his penalty (otherwise I think the team woulda asked him to give the position back straight away)

He tried to fool his own team did he now..Okay but you are not fooling me sunshine..

[Gilles lives!]

[QUOTE=newlaprecord;2855100]Like the previous poster (Corbus?) said defensive driving is a skill. I enjoyed it, its a part of racing, hanging on to your position no matter what, it just show how bad you want it.

QUOTE]

Too me it is a big shame that it is a part of F1 racing nowadays, it teaches the young kids in karting bad habits ! Especially blocking in the first few laps of a long GP.

IMO he (Massa) has yet to prove that he is as quick as he was before his unfortunate accident.

If he was playing the team game from the start, then he did an exceptional job, but after last year I can't believe that is true.

On my HD TV, Button was fully alongside and on the inside for the next righthand turn, he chose the escape road purely to prevent a big accident, simple as that and yes his team should then have told him to let Massa back through, as their past record in Oz was never going to do them any favours !

[Peter Mallett]

Nothing wrong with Massa's driving. Indeed Button was all over him but he didn't yeild. That has set a benchmark for the season now and he who lives by the sword will die by it.

What I found perplexing was the DRS. It clearly didn't work so can we go back to non moveable rear wings now please?

As to Button's attempt? He had to try and there was nothing wrong with trying. He possibly should have slowed down immediately but he also knew that Alonso was there so losing one place would have been two anyway. On balance better than a drive through but not good.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Wims

As for Ferrari ordering Alonso to pass Massa right after Button makes his mistake, I dont see anything wrong about that at all, infact, I applaud them for making such a strategy decision in the heat of the battle.

Just out of interest and maybe a bit off topic here but do we think that Ferrari have laid their cards out already and put their backing behind Fernando? After all, it did benefit him points wise?

[newlaprecord]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

He tried to fool his own team did he now..Okay but you are not fooling me sunshine..

Yea, dont let fool yourself, you're better than that

Replays also clearly show that, contrary to his claim on the car-to-pit radio, Button was not in front of Massa as they approached Turn Twelve and he took little persuasion - there was just the faintest twitch right from the Ferrari - to veer up the exit road and past Massa. What's amazing is that McLaren didn't review the incident for themselves and instead apparently trusted Button's word as they sought reassurance from the race stewards that his move would somehow be deemed legitimate.

source: http://planetf1.com/race-features/68...m-Australia-GP

[Peter Mallett]

The Whitmarsh quote I read, was that McLaren asked for guidance from the race director who did not get back to them but waited for a Steward's opinion.

Just goes to show how things may be mis-reported.

Also Brundle commented that although he was bang to rights in his opinion Button's radio comments were aimed at the stewards nothing about trying to fool the team. In fact he added that it showed that, as usual, Jenson was using his head even under pressure. So I'm not sure how this "trying to fool the team" thing arises.

The team knew the score and so did Jenson.

[newlaprecord]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

What I found perplexing was the DRS. It clearly didn't work so can we go back to non moveable rear wings now please?

It did clearly work throught the weekend at multiple occasions. If you watch carefuly, Button used up most of his KERS during the lap (for the sake of being all over Massa in virtually every corner) hence never managed to deploy a FULL LOAD of KERS AND the DRS at the same time for the full length of the main straight. Massa on the other hand categorically used NONE of his KERS during the lap, always used up the full load for the main straight.

Really makes you think whether saving the KERS for a full lap would have been a greater strategy than cutting the chicane and acting like nothing happend.

To be fair tho, the DRS , with this length of main straight (relatively short) seemed to work more in backmaker-midfield, midfield-frontrunner scenarios. Frontrunner on frontrunner couldnt really use it.

Originally Posted by Mr V

Just out of interest and maybe a bit off topic here but do we think that Ferrari have laid their cards out already and put their backing behind Fernando? After all, it did benefit him points wise?

Yea, its a bit of a grey area tho, because they assumed what was common sense to assume, that Button will give the place back and then he will need to give not one but two places back. Im sure they only chose to do this in the heat of the moment, at that very moment of time it was a fine strategist move to do so they pulled it. I would really like to think they wouldnt otherwise have deployed team orders so early in the season, especially since Massa had a superb start to the race. Maybe Im too naive.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by newlaprecord

It did clearly work throught the weekend at multiple occasions.

Not so sure. Most of the passes took place at parts of the track where the DRS couldn't be utilised. So on the basis of this race it clearly doesn't work.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

What I found perplexing was the DRS. It clearly didn't work so can we go back to non moveable rear wings now please?

It's a bit too soon to say it doesn't work. The FIA have said that they're looking to tweak it over the course of the season (size of slot, amount of places you can use it...etc). Perhaps they just went conservative in Australia.

[Peter Mallett]

Trouble is if you have to tweak something to meet your original intentions, it probably isn't worth thr effort in the forst place. Personally this is just like Bernie's magic rain theory.

[newlaprecord]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

.... Button's radio comments were aimed at the stewards nothing about trying to fool the team. In fact he added that it showed that, as usual, Jenson was using his head even under pressure. So I'm not sure how this "trying to fool the team" thing arises.

...

"using his head" is a bit rich for a driver who wasted a podium finish by not giving back an illegally gained position but hey What I reckon is the complete opposite, Jense got clearly fustrated behind Massa. Keeping it cool or using his head are hardly phrasings that would come to mind.

You are of course right, his radio was aming at the race stewards (via the team), and he did repeat the "I was ahead going into the corner" comment at several post-race interviews too. The problem is, he wasnt ahead. Maybe by an inch at some point, but not ahead like it was his line. It was clearly Massa's line going into the corner, he got the inside and they were head-to-head (none of the ahead non-sense) Wether it's fooling the team or the stewards is another question. If you ask me, he was fooling himself, he really made him belive that he did enought to gain that position.

[Peter Mallett]

Brundle employed the "using his head" comment or words to that effect. I paraphrased it because you (or someone) used another part of his commentary to justify a bash at a driver who did nothing particularly wrong. Vettel had all four wheels off the track after passing Button yet nothing was said.

To repeat. Typical racing incident, the die was cast when Ferrari swapped drivers. It was compounded when Ferrari pitted their drivers. What goes around, comes around, I'm sure the next driver who makes this kind of error, rather than running into another car, will also be considered in a similar light.

To answer the thread title there's no need to legislate against good driving skills.

[bravo]

Back on topic.. how about the ruling being changed so that a driver who loses a place is entitled to get their place back within a few corners unless in that time they are overtaken themselves.

Button obviously had to give the place back, but how is he to give it back if Massa has almost stopped in order to let Alonso past? Reverse?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by newlaprecord

Yea, its a bit of a grey area tho, because they assumed what was common sense to assume, that Button will give the place back and then he will need to give not one but two places back. Im sure they only chose to do this in the heat of the moment, at that very moment of time it was a fine strategist move to do so they pulled it. I would really like to think they wouldnt otherwise have deployed team orders so early in the season, especially since Massa had a superb start to the race. Maybe Im too naive.

I wonder if Ferrari would have told Fernando to let Felipe back through once Jen's let them both through?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I wonder if Ferrari would have told Fernando to let Felipe back through once Jen's let them both through?

Not likely. Massa would have had the phrase: "Fernando - is - faster - than -you" played over his radio on continuous loop from the beginning of the race.

[Peter Mallett]

How long before Massa gets the "Try to crash on the next lap" call?

[Gilles lives!]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

How long before Massa gets the "Try to crash on the next lap" call?

I think it got that coming out of the pits during qually

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I wonder if Ferrari would have told Fernando to let Felipe back through once Jen's let them both through?

Originally Posted by Marbot

Not likely. Massa would have had the phrase: "Fernando - is - faster - than -you" played over his radio on continuous loop from the beginning of the race.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

How long before Massa gets the "Try to crash on the next lap" call?

I don't think he needs to be "called" anymore, now that team orders are abolished he is #2 right from the start, and yes he let Fernando pass because it's "pre-ordered" in his briefings.