What if it had been Williams?

[Damon]

GT_R; I don't appreciate being labeled shallow by the likes of you. What do personal attacks achieve aside from showing weakness on your part.

I have been a follower of F1 as long as I can remember and have witnessed F1 fall backwards since Schu has been at Ferrari. F1 racing should be just that and I have always followed and supported those who are willing to do so. Schu is quite happy being out front but does not like racing, he'd rather take someone out than go wheel to wheel or simply have his team create a victory for him. If he's the epitomy of racing drivers then the sport is in a very sorry state indeed.

[Andrew2001]

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>>>I have been a follower of F1 as long as I can remember and have witnessed F1 fall backwards since Schu has been at Ferrari. F1 racing should be just that and I have always followed and supported those who are willing to do so. Schu is quite happy being out front but does not like racing, he'd rather take someone out than go wheel to wheel or simply have his team create a victory for him. If he's the epitomy of racing drivers then the sport is in a very sorry state indeed. >>>>

Well said DAmon, totally agree.

[Andrew2001]

>>>>>Williams _might_ do this some day, but it'll be a totally different situation. _Never_ this early in the season would they pull something like that. If it got down to the last 3 races, and Ralph was totally out of contention, but JPM had a shot at the championship... Then yes, I believe they'd change the results. But this... Reubens is the only threat to Schumacher, was clearly fastest all weekend... Ferarri has _no_ reason to think they won't win every race for the rest of the year, but they still won't allow their drivers to race! They won't let the fans enjoy the sport one bit! We're being force-fed Schumacher until we vomit!

If Williams did it, at a more reasonable time in the season, the fans would accept it, because it'd be in pursuit of de-throning M$, and most people at least support the underdog, especially now, when we're so desperate for competition. But Ferarri will easily take the constructor's championship, and rightly so, their car is a class killer, like the '92 Williams. But manipulating the championship so blatantly towards one driver so he can quite literally obliterate the history of Grand Prix racing by resetting every record.... It's absolutely disgusting. They're trying to tie up the WDC by Hockenheim! It flies in the face of _everything_ the sport is supposed to be about, allowing corporate executives to dictate the outcome of the entire season. >>>

Yes well said Lee, that is nothing short of the truth, couldn't have summed teh whole thing up better myself.

Andrew

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Gt_R

I don't deny that what Ferrari did was unpleasant. But stop all the **** that make Williams, Mclaren, Head, Frank, Ron seem like saints... unless thats how little you know of F1.

Gt_R...i presume that you've also taken my points into view when you posted this, at the end of the day, what i was saying that, yes patrick did ask rafe to move over, but it was to aid the team, in france jpm chose the "right" compound for the day, and had his engine not blown up he would have finished on the podium, as for silverstone, had jpm been allowed to go through, it's highly likely that he could have got williams 4 points as opposed to 3.....but we'll never know!

BUT in years to come, i don't think that jpm is going to sit back and worry too much about that extra point! rubens i should imagine, if he ends up with only 1 victory in his career is going to look at sunday and how un-nessessiary it was! ferrari and tgf have got that equipment to win this years wdc without rubens pulling over to give him an extra 4 points! and what do you think tgf is going to feel in years to come......my 5th wdc, i would have won it without those extra 4 points, but that's another wdc tarnished by controversy? maybe your right Gt-R, maybe i do know TOO LITTLE about F1??

Originally posted by drexel
So what were Williams doing in 93, with teamorders helping Prost....except that was in an underhanded way.

yes..at france, but my understanding of it was that damon, an english driver was going to be re-paid at silverstone, and it certainly looked that way before his engine blew up, or do you think prost had a detonation button aswell?

[Mr V]

sorry to carry on, but, damon was also well in the lead in hockenheim when his tyre exploded (or maybe prost had a button for that also?) it's quite conceivable that if not for damon's failures at silverstone and hockenheim, he would have gone on to win 5 races on the bounce (along with hungary, spa and monza that he actually won!) not bad for a driver who was brought in to aid prost to the wdc aswell as secure the team as many points towards to wcc as possible!

the FW15 of 1993 was very much like this years ferrari, i.e...the class of the field, and that allowed the team leader to win the wdc as well as the no 2 to win 3 races without the need for the no 2 rolling over and letting the no 1 through!

[Liz]

Not to mention the fact that the No. 1 driver that year was a three-time World Champion who won every single one of them. (That Senna Conspiracy Theory of 1989 has been disproven and Senna himself took it back eventually.)

But the argument is not at the bottom "How corrupt do we want F1 to be?" but "Do we want F1 to be corrupt at all?"

[Mania]

I agree with what GT-R is saying in a way. There is no doubt that Williams arent angels either nor is ol Patrick. Head has called for one driver to move over (such as Ralf for his boy Juan) not to mention the fact that Patrick himself was the man who called for Carlos Reutemann to move over for another one of his blue eyed boys Alan Jones.

Not to mention the blatant race fixing that Head, Jock Clear, Ron Dennis etc were responsible for in Jerez 97.

The good of the team cannot justify any such actions. It makes no difference - what Williams did on those occasions is no more forgiving than what Ferarri did on Sunday.

I have a lot of respect for Frank - I admire him more than any other team owner on the grid - and I would hope he wouldnt try and pull a similar stunt but history diagrees with that view point...

[Mr V]

i think that with regard to jerez '97 (and i'm proberbly wrong here - again!) but williams were put in the position where it was either let mika and dc through or prepare to fight for the place! although tgf was out of the race, it was not a foregone conclusion that he could finish if he actually had to race for it! letting the mclarens through, which may have not been good for all involved (esp mika imo) but at the end of the day, finishing and winning the wdc was more important than winning the race!

[Damon]

exactly mr v. Letting Mika through was in Jacques interest as he still needed two points to take the title. A win wasn't important at that point.