Old soldiers never die ...

numbersix · 27 Jan 2012, 09:53 (Ref:3017682)

Delighted that I am at the influx of new marshals, particularly at the immensely beautiful Oulton Park, I have noticed a dramatic decline of the "old faces" over the years; that is, highly experienced marshals at all levels in all duties who have just - disappeared. I'm sure it's the same everywhere else.

The amount of effort put into new recruitment is huge and admirable and helps refill the bucket. What I don't know is how much effort is made to plug the holes in the bucket.

For example, if an old hand stops turning up, is there any mechanism in place to notice this? If so, does anyone give them a call to see if there is something that can be done to lure them back?

I remember 20 years ago being gently conned into running a Sunday School at the local church. So I did - for four years. I even ended up on the church council. Then I moved house and couldn't turn up for a month or two. Did anyone call me? No. Not a thing. It was as if I never existed. Made me feel really good.

The question is - do we unwittingly do this to our own people? How many old soldiers feel undervalued by their own side?

If this is true, then it wouldn't take much to organise a few people at each circuit who could phone 'the list of the lost' in the hope that they can turn things round. The questions are: who pays the phone bills and how do we find out who's gone off the radar?

Phil

Paul Mann · 27 Jan 2012, 11:11 (Ref:3017714)

Lots of mobile monthly tarifs include free minutes, and there is always email.

Great idea

ascarmarshal · 27 Jan 2012, 11:26 (Ref:3017725)

I retired from marshalling at race meetings (I still work as a marshal mid week at Brands Hatch) at the end of 2007 for a number of reasons. One was the death of my mother (who was chief paddock for SCSA at Rockingham and deputy chief paddock at Brands until cancer forced her to stop in mid 2005) in late 2006. I did 2007 but found the enjoyment had gone and have now moved on to different hobbies which take up a lot of my free time. I was graded as an Observer. I don't think I'll be returning to marshalling either.

Another reason I gave up marshalling is that I am going through a major change in my personal life. Those of you who know me know what it is and at the moment that is all I want to say on that.

**Woolley** · 27 Jan 2012, 13:03 (Ref:3017769)

Presumably the MSA now have a list of those who were registered and now aren't, so maybe a mailshot to ask why not?

Then there's the question to those who've responded to 'If you don't like it, don't do it' in the affirmative as to what they don't like, noting that the inference of that statement was that nobody apparently cared why they didn't like it enought to do something about it.

Finally there's those who do like it, but now go elsewhere. There are some venues and clubs who for the time being won't see me, for instance, and I'm sure others will have their own list of 'marshal, snog, avoid' which will differ from mine. If there's a simple solution for the 'avoid' list I would hope that the reason has been addressed to someone so that it can be reviewed - just in case there's a lot of people with the same reason.

Steve Fox · 27 Jan 2012, 15:51 (Ref:3017842)

If a plan can be thought up it would be very useful, I would hate to think that nobody noticed me if I were to simply wander off. I'm sure that there is a mechanism in place whereby people who have put down for meetings at the start of the year and then don't turn up sound an alarm bell somewhere, (as a Brands Marshal I am pretty sure that MW would be on my case if I didn't turn up to meetings I'd put down for and I'm sure she would be n the email to anyone who suddenly went missing) but in most cases there isn't a mechanism for actually noticing that someone isn't there, mostly because one never knows who will be on post with whom, it would simply be down to not spotting them at signing on which would be a little random, particularly if, like me, one is not especially sociable.
The largest problem must be that there isn't a record of who does what, we have our prc's, we download availability forms, we send them to the CM, there isn't a feedback circuit, nobody can say if we simply don't fill in the availability forms and go fishing instead. Maybe there should be a point of contact, someone to tell, but then what? What can they do about anything (unless you have an unanswered grievance or are sick of the sight of post 13)? If whatever made you interested in the first place has either changed or has been satisfied there would be little that anyone can do. If on the other hand you don't like how things are done then there must be a place for you upstairs, let that improvement happen!

NewYankee01 · 27 Jan 2012, 18:16 (Ref:3017892)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Fox

If a plan can be thought up it would be very useful, I would hate to think that nobody noticed me if I were to simply wander off. I'm sure that there is a mechanism in place whereby people who have put down for meetings at the start of the year and then don't turn up sound an alarm bell somewhere, (as a Brands Marshal I am pretty sure that MW would be on my case if I didn't turn up to meetings I'd put down for and I'm sure she would be n the email to anyone who suddenly went missing) but in most cases there isn't a mechanism for actually noticing that someone isn't there, mostly because one never knows who will be on post with whom, it would simply be down to not spotting them at signing on which would be a little random, particularly if, like me, one is not especially sociable.
The largest problem must be that there isn't a record of who does what, we have our prc's, we download availability forms, we send them to the CM, there isn't a feedback circuit, nobody can say if we simply don't fill in the availability forms and go fishing instead. Maybe there should be a point of contact, someone to tell, but then what? What can they do about anything (unless you have an unanswered grievance or are sick of the sight of post 13)? If whatever made you interested in the first place has either changed or has been satisfied there would be little that anyone can do. If on the other hand you don't like how things are done then there must be a place for you upstairs, let that improvement happen!

I don't know but is it not the sign on sheets organising clubs work on what establishes which people attend any one event event.

It would be a nice touch aswell if a periodic email were to be sent out. Just not as often as the companies you get on your email that you might not have used for years say!

Maybe without it seeming being treated like kids a reminder from an organising club every 3/6 months to remind what events have been booked or if no events have been booked this could definately be a good feature anyway, especially if some jiggerypokery were to be done with an unsubscribe feature to an email, you'd know if a marshal has no interest in continuing whatsoever and then things can be taken from there...

Nadine J Lewis · 27 Jan 2012, 18:33 (Ref:3017900)

In the North region of the BMMC we certainly contact people at renewal time if they don't wish to renewal and find out why where possible. Mostly due to change in circumstances to be fair.

We are also looking at a method of reviewing signing on sheets in collaboration with BRSCC NW and BARC NW and seeing any patterns of no-shows. Firstly with a view to find out if everything is ok and secondly to remind people that they should apologise to the Chief Marshal.

It does take time for volunteers to do this but we are working on a plan

I can't speak for other regions on this but we are making a start at least.

As numbersix says we are filling the top with newbies and now need to plug the hole to stop people going (or at least make it smaller!)

Dave Brand · 27 Jan 2012, 19:45 (Ref:3017921)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolley

Presumably the MSA now have a list of those who were registered and now aren't, so maybe a mailshot to ask why not?

I can't help thinking that they missed an opportunity with the recent exercise by not including a "no longer active" option on the forms. A positive indication is always better than an assumption.

**Woolley** · 27 Jan 2012, 22:29 (Ref:3017980)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I can't help thinking that they missed an opportunity with the recent exercise by not including a "no longer active" option on the forms. A positive indication is always better than an assumption.

Pretty much what I was thinking when I wrote it.

Stack · 28 Jan 2012, 10:20 (Ref:3018098)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolley

Then there's the question to those who've responded to 'If you don't like it, don't do it' in the affirmative as to what they don't like, noting that the inference of that statement was that nobody apparently cared why they didn't like it enought to do something about it.

I tell you what Woolley, in most of your posts you hit the nail fair and squarely on the head!

If only all clubs/chief marshals thought like you.

This thread is in some way echoing the same thoughts as in the "tough year for marshals" one. It's probably time the powers that be took some notice,

MacGWC · 28 Jan 2012, 10:42 (Ref:3018113)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stack

I tell you what Woolley, in most of your posts you hit the nail fair and squarely on the head!

If only all clubs/chief marshals thought like you.

This thread is in some way echoing the same thoughts as in the "tough year for marshals" one. It's probably time the powers that be took some notice,

The whole thrust of the various campaigns and proposals being put forward by the Marshals’ Club right now is to keep a few more of the marshals we have. Hence the requests to get the GP Fiver updated to something matching the increased costs of marshalling over the past 20 years. We have asked that those clubs who felt that they could no longer pay even a nominal amount to marshals in 2012 should think again. We have also requested that marshals be better represented “at Court”, i.e. our request that there should be a BMMC representative on Motor Sports Council, where policy and strategy are agreed. (See article on www.marshals.co.uk headed “2012 – A Tough Year for Marshals)

We have demonstrated in several papers submitted via the ABMRC that constant recruitment may answer the question numerically when we lose marshals, it does not replace the experience we lose. We have also pointed out that recruitment is not cheap, nor is the continual training of new marshals. Perhaps it is time for some of this effort and cost to be re-directed to keeping a few more of those who are trained and experienced.

So, more consideration all round is called for. This includes respect for the time given FOC by marshals and for their interests when it comes to setting timetables for events, etc.

Mark Mitchell · 28 Jan 2012, 14:17 (Ref:3018171)

Quote:

Originally Posted by numbersix

Delighted that I am at the influx of new marshals, particularly at the immensely beautiful Oulton Park, I have noticed a dramatic decline of the "old faces" over the years; that is, highly experienced marshals at all levels in all duties who have just - disappeared. I'm sure it's the same everywhere else.

The amount of effort put into new recruitment is huge and admirable and helps refill the bucket. What I don't know is how much effort is made to plug the holes in the bucket.

For example, if an old hand stops turning up, is there any mechanism in place to notice this? If so, does anyone give them a call to see if there is something that can be done to lure them back?

I remember 20 years ago being gently conned into running a Sunday School at the local church. So I did - for four years. I even ended up on the church council. Then I moved house and couldn't turn up for a month or two. Did anyone call me? No. Not a thing. It was as if I never existed. Made me feel really good.

The question is - do we unwittingly do this to our own people? How many old soldiers feel undervalued by their own side?

If this is true, then it wouldn't take much to organise a few people at each circuit who could phone 'the list of the lost' in the hope that they can turn things round. The questions are: who pays the phone bills and how do we find out who's gone off the radar?

Phil

Phil, great post.

My wife gave up marshalling several years ago (Before her illness) but not once was she contacted to find out why. Same with me when I failed to renew a couple of years ago. Not too concerned personally but it could possibly lead to the perception that we're not that valued in the first place? However, I will assume that this "System" Nadine refers to was not in place a few years ago?

Phil mentions "Old Hands" not coming to events any more. We Observers do actually talk to other Observers etc and the general opinion seems to be that some (Not all) of our recent recruits have problems with 1: Attitute 2: The ability to accept instruction. Their concept of good marshalling and general attititude may possibly intimidate some of the elder statesmen and women to the point where they think "Let Them Get On With It"

My own personal view is that "Team Wilson" has possibly done more harm than good. (This is no way meant to be a slur on Peter or any other persons involved in recruitment) Generally, "Recruitment" comes from our stall at BTCC events - the average BTCC supporter has limited experience, or knowledge of other less "Glamourous" racing formulae and therefore may come to expect this type of "Show" at all events.
When I chat with new recruits on post, the ones that appear to have something going for them usually have been to race meetings for several years before making the leap to the other side of the armco, others may have relatives or friends that are already marshalling.
Again, this comes from personal experience, but those newbies who turn up on post........think they know it all.......have little consideration for others or the "Rules" tend to have only ever seen BTCC on the telly or signed up at our tent at the last Touring Car event.

Now, this post may sound like I am Anti-Newbie or tarring every new recruit with the same brush. I'm not or at least not intending it to come across that way, and will apologise now if you feel offended. I think I've had a fair share of new marshals on my posts and would say 50% are going to make the grade. Unfortunately the 50% who I feel are lacking in Knowledge, Attitude and Skills will still be retained because we appear to be quantity orientated rather that quality.

EDIT: Having read my post, it's perfectly feasible that the newbies have the same problems with us Old Farts

exflagman · 28 Jan 2012, 18:57 (Ref:3018271)

Well put Mark. We also drifted away from the sport about 6-7 years ago - after a probable total of over 50 years person-years of marshalling.
Only one person in that time has contacted us to ask why - and he was not connected with any club/circuit. He still regulary phones me trying to persuade me to come back. His comments regarding the newer intake of marshals seem to match exactly your comments.

Hopefully Nadines system will improve matters - I don't envy her the task, as we tried something similar - but using 'snail mail' - about 30 years ago when I was coerced into becoming regional membership secretary.

I am not sure you qualify for the Old Farts category just yet - I can remember you as a fresh faced trainee flag marshal - and both you and I had the photo to prove it - I still have my copy on the wall

Mark Mitchell · 29 Jan 2012, 01:54 (Ref:3018372)

Ha ha you were asleep and I was looking the wrong way!

exflagman · 29 Jan 2012, 08:21 (Ref:3018433)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Ha ha you were asleep and I was looking the wrong way!

I claim it was a carefully controlled test to see how the trainee flag marshal would react to the situation - You failed

Chris Hobson · 29 Jan 2012, 21:25 (Ref:3018644)

An interesting post from Mark, but unfortunately it contains a great number of inacuracies.

For at least the past three years the BMMC has sent two letters to non-renewals, one at the end of February from the regional chairman and one at the end of March from me. In both we ask why people have not renewed and in mine I actually ask if someone is not renewing will they please take time to let me know why. The replies are then all reviewed to see if there is anything we can do to turn the person around.

We then look at those who have not renewed and regional chairmen then phone a good number to try to persuade them to rejoin.

As for Team Wilson, I cannot praise them enough. The BMMC initiative has brought in a great many of the new recruits to the sport. Don't forget though Mark, the vast majority first do a taster day (thanks to everyone who takes time to host them) so they can see what marshalling is all about at a NON-BTCC meeting, then based on that, they decide whether or not they want to give our hobby a try.

You say we are quantity not quality oriented - wrong again. We constantly review the grading and training scheme to ensure we give everyone the best help we can and it is up to the marshal as to whether they continue or not - as it always has been! Ask any MSA trainer now as to where the emphasis is placed - what all the training aids are designed to deliver - and the answwer should be quality every time.

I will be at the Oulton Park training weekend in a few weeks time (and at other training days) - and will be happy to discuss any of this in the sessions I will be doing there.

The Flagman · 30 Jan 2012, 11:11 (Ref:3018854)

This thread has struck a few chords with me too. For me its the change of lifestyle at home which is likely to influence what I do.

I was persuaded by the late Brenda Catley to come out on post for the HSCC at Donington and Mallory Park. That was in 1980. HSCC has been my priority since. I've done the majority of their meetings every year since. In fact I'm probably one of the longest serving 'members' - I think only Brian Pearson has a slightly longer record.
I am privileged in the sense that I am sufficiently well known that I get asked where I would like to go on circuit. I have been their 'marshal of the year' four times. This is based on days signed on - not on ability as a marshal but on miles driven to events.
I have really enjoyed it but have never really felt valued by the club. Strange you might think but recognition is confined to a free club membership (£15pa) and a few lines in each Decembers magazine. I have never once been asked for an opinion or even invited to be presented with my award. The vast majority of members wouldn't have a clue who I was.

So 30 years on could clubs be missing a trick in boosting the marshalling experience by involving marshals to try and create greater loyalty? It does sometimes happen but usually organised by the marshals themselves.

Iain Rowley and many friends organise a Marshal's Barbeque at the Classic and thats excellent but where is the HSCC? Truth is the pressure on funds and timetables mean that there is less opportunity and it will get worse. But wherever there is a two day meeting there is a possibility.

All through raising a family I carried on marshalling. Now my children are 28,25 & 21 - all living at home! Within the next year or so the house will empty leaving my wife of 36 years alone at the weekends. We will need to spend more time together so this year marshalling is becoming less of a priority. Some weekeneds are devoted to music festivals and others to walking weekends.

I tried to pass on my enthusiasm to my son. He's tried circuit marshalling but its not for him - timetables and restriction on movement on circuit are his reasons so he prefers rallies.
I've decided to spend most of my marshalling days at local kart tracks. Anybody who hasn't tried kart meetings should give it a try. Whilton Mill over Silverstone, PFI over Donington any day.

So by this time next year I could be one of the 'missing' but will I be missed? I'd be surprised but I'll let you know.

David Morgan

Steve Fox · 30 Jan 2012, 18:07 (Ref:3019019)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Flagman

next year I could be one of the 'missing'
David Morgan

So, There are David's contact details ^, there are his reasons ^, There is the timescale^, Is there anything that can be done? Is this a demonstration of our collective impotence? Or is this just what happens?

And who amongst us will (or can) take any action?