Why Barrichello was wrong about the Safety Car

[Valve Bounce]

Pumpkin and Dave, I think it's best at this juncture for us to agree to disagree. No point in flogging a dead horse on this one with you, as we will only end up on unfriendly terms.
Calais, I don't think there is any limit.I think the cars are penalised for speeding through the pit lane because they are a fraction late in hitting the rev limiter, or a fraction early switching it off. I don't think any cars have come through the pit lane at any speed other than that controlled by the limiter.
Mr v and Paul Collins, consider this system:
An accident occurs at a certain loaction on the track. As soon as the marshals report the seriousness of the incident and amount of debris to the stewards, and advice the stewards to impose speed restrictions, the stewards press the electronic control for that section of the track. At the same time, the team managers are informed of this and they instruct their drivers that speed restrictions apply at that part of the circuit. At the same time, the marshals wave a new flag (yellow with black diagonal stripe, say) at the corner before the incident. The rev limiter is applied automatically at the corner before the incident, and it is also incumbent on the drivers to ensure they hit the rev limiter as they pass that flag. So we have the electronically controlled system, plus 2 backups to ensure the rev limiter is on. A green flag is waved at the corner or marshal post after where the incident occurs where it is safe to speed up again, and where the rev limiter is automatically switched off electronically. This way the cars maintain tyre temperature, and continue to race once they are clear of the incident area, while affording the marshals a safe set of conditions ASAP to do their work.
One drawback of the safety car system is that the safe condition does not occur for considerable time after an incident, as the safety car usually takes quite some time (as seen at Montreal) before coming out, and then another lap of the safety car before the cars concertina behind the safety car. In fact I have seen tailenders waved to pass the safety car before it picks up the leader, which means we have one or more cars not travelling at a controlled speed while the safety car is out.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[Mr V]

VB, i do agree with you on the "electronicly controlling cars" thing and as i said earlier, it's the best idea, but even after your well thought out way of how it could be controlled it still leaves it possibly open to the "electronic glitches" that i mentioned earlier. the only way i could see this idea happening (in the safest possible way) if for the drivers to manually operate the limiter like they do going into the pit lane, but, what happens if the driver in front hits his limiter before the car behind? and also it can't be policed properly as there is no white line like there is at the enterance to the pit lane, so drivers being drivers are just going to hit the limiter later and later, it's in their nature.

VB, i am with you on this one, i'm just trying to look at the safety aspects of it!

[EvilPumpkin]

Whilst I understand the rationale for this, I have to ask the question:

These are supposed to be the top drivers in the world. The best of the best. Why is it that they are incapable of heeding one of the most basic signals in motorsport to the extent that they have to be slowed down electronically?

Perhaps it would be an interim step to agree what constitutes a safe slowing down speed for a yellow zone and penalise any driver that does not comply with it? If they start losing time and points for not complying with safety rules, they'll soon get the idea.

This isn't to negate the electronic idea but it just sticks in my throat that men who are being paid millions of dollars a year for their driving skills are incapable of modifying their own driving speed.

[Valve Bounce]

OK first of all, the limiter is supposed to be tripped electronically. The manual thing is only a fail safe in case the electronic thing doesn't work. By the time the drivers are supposed to be putting all this into effect, the team managers would have warned them that this is going to happen at the designated location. The flag is only a secondary warning for them to apply the limiter if ( and I don't think this will happen) the electronic control malfunctions.
I am basically thinking of slowing down cars before they come onto the incident scene for the first time. This will give quick response under safer conditions for drivers to be rescued, cars to be removed, etc. at the earliest possible time. We have seen some horrifying occasions with marshals running onto the track to remove debris without any speed controls being applied except waved yellows, which is death defying. In fact, my opinion is that marshalls should not be used to remove debris unless the cars are controlled to speeds no more than 50 kph.
About your drivers not being able to modify their driving speed in these circumstances, its the same rush of blood that makes sailors on port tack dive into the windward mark when there is a boat on starboard approaching the mark. A good friend of mine did that and got dsq'd - his reason being he could not bear seeing his club mate go into the windward mark ahead of him. And this was in a championship race. Of course, with racing cars, the impression of relative speed is sometimes forgotten in the rush to beat the other driver. The most successful drivers, you will find, are often the most ruthless.

God I am raving, arn't I?

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[EvilPumpkin]

I'm not arguing with your assessment Valve, but I still think it's kind of bad that these supposedly highly professional and outrageously highly paid drivers are unable to manage a simple thing like applying the brakes at the appropriate time necessitating tracks to have all sorts of extra technology installed to MAKE them do it.

It's just how I feel about it. I'm not outrageously highly paid, but if I did not do something that I was supposed to do, which put others at risk, and blamed it on a "rush of blood" - I'd still get fired.

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah!! You'd think they would have more sense than weaving all over the track, trying to push other drivers off the track, and all sorts of stupid things like that.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[EvilPumpkin]

I would think they would have enough respect for their own safety and the safety of others to obey danger signals.

If they ran a red light on a public road they'd be penalised - so why shouldn't the same be applied on the track.

[ljakse]

VB I like the idea of controlling cars' speed at the yellow flag zone. And I do think it requires electronic control for two reasons:
1. I don't think they're not slowing down 'coz of recklessness, but because their perception of 'safe speed' is a bit beyond our reasoning
2. they don't have speed indicators


And about safety car being too slow - Senna was the one who came alongside to SC and waved to the driver to go faster. That made Bernie (or Max) to have allways an AMG Merc for safety car, and if you look a bit closer, you'll realise that it's going rather fast for an 'ordinary' car. ( http://www.mclaren.com/mclaren/toybo...comparison.MPG )

P.S. Don't ask me why it's not a Ferrari

[Mr V]

Originally posted by ljakse
.P.S. Don't ask me why it's not a Ferrari

maybe (and i don't know for sure) it's because a Ferrari isn't big enough internaly or have enough boot space to carry all the equipment needed in a safety car?

[Dave Brand]

Before we get too carried away with this 'electronic speed control' idea, let's stop & think. Electronic speed control is not a realistic proposition; what would be installed is electronic speed limiters. Not quite the same thing - a limiter just prevents the driver accelerating past a preset limit.

So, why don't I think electronic speed control is a viable option? Because, quite simply, to control the speed it would be necessary for the system to apply the brakes - applying a limiter just, in effect, shuts the engine down. Remote braking? Too dangerous to even contemplate!

Limiters have a limited (!) use - in some situations they would be a useful aid to the driver, but, as the be all & end all of controlling cars under yellow flags, no.

At the risk of being accused of flogging a dead horse, I will reiterate my comment that speed limiters cannot group the cars safely in the same way that a safety car does; this grouping is a valuable aid to those handling the incident as it gives gaps of a minute or more in which work can be done. Cars passing by at 50km/h, or whatever, at intervals of a few seconds don't give a safe working environment - a car can kill at 50km/h.

[Valve Bounce]

OK, you are right, I am wrong. That's my last word on this thread.