CALLING ALL Post 93 Production Saloons (CTCRC)

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Agree with big Andy and have tried hard to change the situation from within but it falls on death ears. Someone in both CTCRC and BARC have to budge on this and format a sub £100 joint membership before its too late.

Al - you mentioned welded cages. Are these not allowed? I couldn't see anything in the regs about it. I've only just registered on the CTCRC forum, so have to wait to be validated before I can ask there.

[Al Weyman]

Did I mention welded cages I would have thought those ok but check with Andy Johnson I know seam welding isn't.

[ANDY J]

Originally Posted by historic racer

So that translated to five cars on the grid at Oulton, I know one chap by the name of Richard and a friend of his that you turned away, that would have given you a 50% increase in your grid size, but guess you know what you are doing Oh and it was me that steered him in your direction when he said he wanted to switch from trackdays to racing.

Historic Racer yes I was a bit disappointed with only 6 cars (not 5) for the first round but it was only a single header and the rest are all double headers so I feel we will have more at the next one.
As for turning cars away if they don't meet the regs what am I supposed to do as all the rest were built to the rules.

[historic racer]

Originally Posted by ANDY J

Historic Racer yes I was a bit disappointed with only 6 cars (not 5) for the first round but it was only a single header and the rest are all double headers so I feel we will have more at the next one.
As for turning cars away if they don't meet the regs what am I supposed to do as all the rest were built to the rules.

Write the regs to appeal to a wider customer base, they are not exactly clear, at the begining you say any homologated parts then later in the engine section for example you say it has to be standard ??? With hardly any newcomers to racing at the moment you main catchment is track day boys, most of their cars are modified beyond your regs and no way will they go back, you are competing with MSVR and CSCC, with the first round of the CSCC soon lets wait and see who has the greater appeal and your mem fees dont help !

[Lancsbreaker]

As posted in the Historic racing lounge......

"The Classic Sports Car Club start their 2013 season, and their tenth since forming, at Snetterton over the weekend of 13/14 April. Using the 300 circuit on the Saturday and the 200 circuit on the Sunday.

The Swinging Sixties race was so oversubscribed that it now has two races - Group 1 has 35 entries ranging from Minis, MGs, Anglias, Alfas, BMWs to an NSU. The Group 2 grid for larger capacity cars and various Loti has been bolstered by a few cars initially entered for Bernie's HVRA race (which sadly suffered a low entry). 32 entries for the Group 2 grid with various Jags, TR's, etc taking on the V8 brigade.

Also on Saturday there are 2 races for Ferraris, The Aero Racing Morgan Challenge, a Jaguar race and a race for Lotus 7 lookalike cars.

Sunday sees races for the 'Future Classics - 43 entries, Tin Tops - 26 entries, The Jigsaw Classic Triumph series - 14 entries, the new CSCC 'Modern Classics' series - 20 entries and finally a Sports V Sallon Challenge race - 13 entries"

I understand the Sports v Saloon is now up to 21 entries........

And as for Oulton being a long way for people to travel.......for those of us who have Oulton as our local circuit, most other race tracks are a long way away! And I know which I'd rather race at, Oulton or Brands Indy.......and surprisingly enough it isn't the little roundabout on the other side of the Thames.....

[historic racer]

Quite agree we only live a few miles from the " roundabout " but much prefer Oulton, why anybody would organise a race meeting with only one 15 minute race is beyond me, nobody would travel far for that so makes no economic sense whatever. 35 for the Swinging Sixties ! most of these could run in the CTCRC but dont, perhaps someone there should take a long hard look at why. With their pre 05 regs they have been written to exclude certain cars but as history has proved one car will always rise to the top and then unless you have one your not in the hunt.

[ANDY J]

Hi all I am not into all this my d*** is bigger than your d*** arguments so the CSCC run much more open regs and the CTCRC run a much stricter set of regs so you pays your money and makes your choice.
So lets all go and race where we want to race and have some fun.
Happy racing cheers Andy

[Gerry5]

Despite lower than expected numbers, I thought this series got off to a good start at Oulton especially considering that the majority of cars entered were built in the last few months especially for the series.

Some of the posts earlier in this thread were suggesting making the regulations broad enough to accomodate cars from existing series and trackdays. Whilst this would have increased grid numbers at the beginning (at a cost to other existing series) it would have diluted the original purpose of the series, its USP, relatively cheap multi-make racing for very standard cars. I hope the CTCRC stick to their guns and keep the regulations tight because if they do this series will thrive.

Some other posts mentioned that the membership fees are higher (£210 total or £25/weekend) than those for other series but given that these other series only have the vaguest of regulations the comparisons aren't that meaningful. The higher fees are largely due to the requirement to join BARC as well as the CTCRC but the BARC support is vital for a series that is bound to start slowly but ultimately has a bright future.

[Tim Wilkinson]

The tight regs appeal to me. I have a "hot hatch" in the garage, I'd like to trackday and race it without having to spend a small fortune. I reckon I can get it on the grid for well under £2k, and not have to strike a balance between reliability and competitiveness. I've been down the £££ route before, the end result was a big credit card bill and not racing anymore. Not everyone will want to go the low-mod budget route, but it's just as valid as the catch-all tin tops and Msv series.

The front runners in cscc tin tops are ex- tourers, a completely different breed. I'd love to race an ex-btcc car, I could buy one developed from my garaged hot hatch today if I had the budget. But I don't, so I won't. Horses for courses.

I don't understand why some people are so bothered, and vocal, about what another club does. There's a certain club I strongly dislike, my response is to ignore it, and simply not send my money their way.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

The front runners in cscc tin tops are ex- tourers, a completely different breed. I'd love to race an ex-btcc car,

I'm not going to get involved in the Series comparisons but it is a slight misnomer to suggest that the front running cars in CSCC Tin Tops are ex BTCC "tourers" as implied here. There is one extremely well developed Integra that also competed in Britcar and there are 2 or 3 ex CLASS B BTCC cars from around the year 2000 era, ie cars that were actually Group N+ Super Production cars from the previous years National Saloon Car Championship. Thats not actually that sophisticated a spec and I bought mine for very very little - I've seen stock hatches for sale for more. Maybe a couple of those cars have been developed further now (mine hasn't & I've not been out in it for a while anyway) but that doesn't make them "BTCC Tourers". The majority of the quick CSCC Class A cars are Integras and Civic Type Rs which have an awesome engine as standard and off the shelf parts, inc H pattern gear boxes. They'd be quick (quicker than mine) even with a bolt in cage, stripped out and not much else doing to them.

[Tim Wilkinson]

You're splitting hairs a bit - they were running in the premier touring car category, and are complex bits of kit. Yours is an early Group N+ car, if I'm not mistaken? I had a few bits from an Astra GSi of the same era, and it still wasn't simple and not something I'd want to get involved with again.

I know a few of the guys who have these later cars, and the 306s at least appear to be fast but fragile. Like the super-tourers were a few years ago they are cheap to buy, but not to run, and even more expensive when they break (which they seem to do regularly). An engine rebuild is well into 4 figures, with a big number at the front, while I could get a standard engine bought for about £350.

The aim of my post wasn't to slate the CSCC or its competitors (I liked the tintops idea when it was introduced, unfortunately it coincided with a lack of cash but I'd happily check it out in the future), but rather to make the point that (at least some of) the front-running cars there are far more complicated, and costly, than CTCRC would allow, and so the clubs are aiming at different markets, even down to omitting the Hondas that could win in pre-2005 at a canter.

[Al Weyman]

The BMW e30 series of near standard cars is very succesful why shouldn't this be as it runs to a simliar remit but allows a broader range of cars, stick with it Andy.

[andy97]

Tim we are O/T but I agree that some of the front running cars are expensive to run but equally we have a fair few Renault Clios that were built in there owners own garage, inc bolt in cages. I think there were 7 of them out at Donington (not ex Clio cup cars). Equally, Pug 205s are popular and many of those are bolt in, and at one point I ran an Alfa that I bought for £650 and a Fiat Uno that I bought for £2K. The number of sophisticated cars can be counted on one hand, that's my point.

[Al Weyman]

And don't you also penalise success including a don't come back clause?

[Mike Sheraton]

Let me put it this way from reading all of this......
seems to me like some people have a slight chip on their shoulder. The CTCRC are simply offering a series which fits in with the original ethos of the club for cheap build and sensible regs racing. If you have a problem with it, why not write it in a blog or something to keep yourself happy, but slagging off the club and quoting how successful other series are is not very classy in my opinion, just looks a bit childish

The summers coming, more cars are being built, and lets just enjoy some racing

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

And don't you also penalise success including a don't come back clause?

Not sure about "don't come back" - but outright winners get a 30 second penalty for the rest of the season, cumulative - two wins = 1 minute, etc.

[andy robinson]

Originally Posted by Mike Sheraton

Let me put it this way from reading all of this......
seems to me like some people have a slight chip on their shoulder. The CTCRC are simply offering a series which fits in with the original ethos of the club for cheap build and sensible regs racing. If you have a problem with it, why not write it in a blog or something to keep yourself happy, but slagging off the club and quoting how successful other series are is not very classy in my opinion, just looks a bit childish

The summers coming, more cars are being built, and lets just enjoy some racing

well said, Mike, we are all on this forum because we have a common interest, ie we like motorsport & just because Im racing with club xyz doesnt mean I should always have a pop at club abc who race similar cars, it's easy to have a go at somebody else hidding behind a keyboard, keep all the insults for facebook

[andy robinson]

Originally Posted by andy97

I'm not going to get involved in the Series comparisons but it is a slight misnomer to suggest that the front running cars in CSCC Tin Tops are ex BTCC "tourers" as implied here. There is one extremely well developed Integra that also competed in Britcar and there are 2 or 3 ex CLASS B BTCC cars from around the year 2000 era, ie cars that were actually Group N+ Super Production cars from the previous years National Saloon Car Championship. Thats not actually that sophisticated a spec and I bought mine for very very little - I've seen stock hatches for sale for more. Maybe a couple of those cars have been developed further now (mine hasn't & I've not been out in it for a while anyway) but that doesn't make them "BTCC Tourers". The majority of the quick CSCC Class A cars are Integras and Civic Type Rs which have an awesome engine as standard and off the shelf parts, inc H pattern gear boxes. They'd be quick (quicker than mine) even with a bolt in cage, stripped out and not much else doing to them.

Andy I ran one of the 306's now with you, & they are a mega car, but also come with mega bill's, I bought mine for not a lot, but spent 3-4 times that sorting it out & trying to get it reliable, a part from the petrol the falcon has been cheaper to run than the 306.
They are a fairly big budget car to look after so can understand this new championship restricting what cars you can use ie you can race with a sub £5k car.
This was the demise of the 750mc Hot Hatch, sorted Mk'2 fiesta were the car to have, then they allowed 2ltr modded cars & suddenly the front running type cars were getting lapped, budgets went up & people give up, 25+ grids down to 7 cars.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by andy robinson

Andy I ran one of the 306's now with you, & they are a mega car, but also come with mega bill's, I bought mine for not a lot, but spent 3-4 times that sorting it out & trying to get it reliable, a part from the petrol the falcon has been cheaper to run than the 306.
They are a fairly big budget car to look after so can understand this new championship restricting what cars you can use ie you can race with a sub £5k car.
This was the demise of the 750mc Hot Hatch, sorted Mk'2 fiesta were the car to have, then they allowed 2ltr modded cars & suddenly the front running type cars were getting lapped, budgets went up & people give up, 25+ grids down to 7 cars.

Andy, I have no doubt that the 306 is an expensive car to run, and probably so is Nigel Ainge's Integra, but my point was that these are the exception rather than the rule. The impression was given earlier on in this thread that these cars are the norm in CSCC Tin Tops and that is simply not true. Plenty of people run in CSCC with sub £5K cars.

I actually think that CTCRC is doing a good thing with its new regs and in particular in trying to encourage new builds with bolt in cages. CTCRC has a different phiosophy to CSCC, and thats not about car builds, its about sprint racing vs 40 min races and thats fair enough.

I actually think that 750MC should have done something similar to your new regs with its "Roadsports" series ("Stock sports"???) to encourage new entrants and differentiate itself. Instead they have regs that allow in Martin Short and his Rollcentre built Britcar 24 hour Toyota GT86, complete with all the sophisticated aero that that has.

I also think that the CTCRC should do something with BARC about the Production Touring Car series - its dying, apart form the VTEC challenge which has merged with it this year - why don't CTCR incorporate them both into one of your series?

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

The front runners in cscc tin tops are ex- tourers, a completely different breed. I'd love to race an ex-btcc car, I could buy one developed from my garaged hot hatch today if I had the budget. But I don't, so I won't. Horses for courses.

Originally Posted by andy97

Andy, I have no doubt that the 306 is an expensive car to run, and probably so is Nigel Ainge's Integra, but my point was that these are the exception rather than the rule. The impression was given earlier on in this thread that these cars are the norm in CSCC Tin Tops and that is simply not true. Plenty of people run in CSCC with sub £5K cars.

Maybe you misread my post. Front-runners, not the norm. I've seen it start as the exception in other championships, and it then becomes cheque-book racing because everyone starts spending to get nearer the front; in reality it's spending to stand still, then leaving because the £££ didn't work. I do hope CSCC doesn't go that way, I suppose the extra pit-stop time helps with that.

I also think that the CTCRC should do something with BARC about the Production Touring Car series - its dying, apart form the VTEC challenge which has merged with it this year - why don't CTCR incorporate them both into one of your series?

From what I recall of the PTC, it was introduced with an out of production limit - the car had to have been produced within the last few years (5?). That's pretty much the opposite of classic, although if the spec was the same there would be scope to run them together, in a kind of stock hatch class A & B way.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

From what I recall of the PTC, it was introduced with an out of production limit - the car had to have been produced within the last few years (5?)

I believe that eligible cars (not that any turned up at Donington at the weekend) need to be in production between 1st January 2006 and 31st December 2012.