[WEC Race] WEC 2013 Round 2: Spa-Francorchamps

[Dario911]

Is it possible to make cars basically different competitive at the same level with same restrictions? No, it's obvious.
Engine with different power, displacement and couple, cannot be balanced with the same restrictors. Cars with different weight cannot be balanced simply adopting the same weight, because of their different mechanical schemes.
So, BoP is necessary, but must be done to make the car as close as possible in the laptimes. We cannot talk about BoP if we have a car (Aston) wich is quite 0.7 seconds faster than th others. Porsche and Ferrari are better balanced.
Balancing must be done to make as uniform as possible laptimes, independently from cars specs.
The same is for P1 class, between petrol and diesel cars. This hasn't been the case in the last years.

[zanfo zanfagni]

Then should be done like fia gt before 2009. Various weight and restrictors tables. You want to run with a mw 1200kg? ok mate, but you bring on the shorter restrictors too. You need more power? ok mate, take the largest restrictors but also 50kg of extra ballast. With this system during fia gt years everyone was happy, maserati and aston were running with 1100kg, corvette and saleen with 1150kg but a more powerfull engine.
Don't take offence, but you're wrong (again lol) about ferrari. 430 GTE ran during 2011 season too, but the development ended in 2010. 997 GT3 RSR kept on using an old chassis but the 2012 car was heavily reworked and updated. It was more like a 997 GT1. Also the AMR vantage is using the chassis of the road vantage (2005), old too i should say. As the new vantage GTE is the evolution of the vantage GT2, both based on the same road chassis, the 2012 997 GT3 RSR is the evoultion of the 997 GT3 RS evo. New cars built on not so new chassis. The amount of bop helps received by the vantage GTE is unjustified like the ones obtained by the 997 GT3 RSR during last and current seasons.

[zanfo zanfagni]

Just a tip for dario. Don't see any malice in my words, is just what I think about unbalanced bop. It is not a ferrari vs porsche fight, because i don't consider true ferrari's the GT1/GT2/GTE/GT3 race versions of the street ferrari cars.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

I do not like too much GT field of WEC and LM grid but I have to agree. Vantage is too much helped by bop. In my opinion the real guilty of recent WEC bop issues is 458 GT. During 2011 and 2012 seasons, 458 GT shown to be too much stronger than anything else; it was the car with the best top speed, best performances and best consumes without any bop waiver . As consequence of that, I think that ACO and FIA are intentioned to penalize the italian car not only cutting 5L from fuel tank, aiming to destroy their fuel advantage given by DI, but also giving too much waivers and breaks to the other rival cars. During silverstone week-end it worked, being the aston almost untouchable. During spa week-end it worked even better in my opinion, with the best 458 and the best vantage close in 10 seconds after six hours.

In Spa, it was not Ferrari to be the best, it has been Aston to play the role of the second voluntarily. After Spa, ACO would have decided for new BoP before of Le Mans, and this explains why Aston was closer to its rivals in the laptimes.
Porsche fastest laps was slightly better than Aston's one, and this was not plausible after Silverstone results.
In 2012 Ferrari was the fastest car because it was the newer one, while Porsche was at its last season and was not capable to face the newest rivals (but it has won several races in WEC, ALMS, GT Open...). Aston was very fast but unreliable, and has lost many points on the track.
This year thing are changing with the new "BoP".
Porsche and Ferrari are there with their laptimes, but while Ferrari is smoother in the laptimes, Porsche is searching for its balancing, being a new car at its second race.
If Aston had pushed as it was really capable to do, in Spa there weren't chances for all its rivals.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

Then should be done like fia gt before 2009. Various weight and restrictors tables. You want to run with a mw 1200kg? ok mate, but you bring on the shorter restrictors too. You need more power? ok mate, take the largest restrictors but also 50kg of extra ballast. With this system during fia gt years everyone was happy, maserati and aston were running with 1100kg, corvette and saleen with 1150kg but a more powerfull engine.
Don't take offence, but you're wrong (again lol) about ferrari. 430 GTE ran during 2011 season too, but the development ended in 2010. 997 GT3 RSR kept on using an old chassis but the 2012 car was heavily reworked and updated. It was more like a 997 GT1. Also the AMR vantage is using the chassis of the road vantage (2005), old too i should say. As the new vantage GTE is the evolution of the vantage GT2, both based on the same road chassis, the 2012 997 GT3 RSR is the evoultion of the 997 GT3 RS evo. New cars built on not so new chassis. The amount of bop helps received by the vantage GTE is unjustified like the ones obtained by the 997 GT3 RSR during last and current seasons.

997 was launched in 2007, so it was not so performant not even with waivers in 2011 and 2012. 2012 version was deeply revised, but only in aerodynamic. Engine, electronic and chassis were unchanged.
What about GT1? Is there ever been a 997 GT1?
F430 GTE ceased its development in 2010 because it was replaced by 458, while Porsche has continued for at least 2 years.
Regards to the BoP in Fia GT, it was not perfect, and you're wrong (again), when you say all were happy.
Maserati, despite its waivers, was clearly advantaged in confront of its rivals, because it started from an overdimensioned project. It was not derived by a real production car, on the contrary of Corvette, Aston, etc., and was the only car to have carbon fiber chassis.
Ask to Corvette or Astons about their complaints with FIA...

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

i don't consider true ferrari's the GT1/GT2/GTE/GT3 race versions of the street ferrari cars.

Why do you think that?

[zanfo zanfagni]

ok, the whole argument of yours is based about the fact that AMR choiced to do not win the race... of course is just an opinion of yours (not so agreeable) without any evidence, just to mention that both #51 and #71 received penalities during the race, so the gap could be even worse for aston. I did a mistake quoting you, I was thinking that you could be reasonable enough to speak about this objectively, but as i'm reading, the ferrari-hater demon inside you gained the upper hand again, making you think: ferrari loses, others are stronger; ferrari win, someone else let them. There is no need for me to keep on, so i switched again on ON the ignore mode. Think about as you wish and have a nice day.

I don't consider ferrari race versions true ferrari's because are race cars built to respect a tech regulamentation written by someone else. Is just a converted street ferrari in my opinion. Cars like 458 italia or f12 berlinetta have been concepted, projected and built by ferrari in absolute freedom. Ferrari engineers and designers MADE the car. Race versions is different, someone else (FIA and ACO) writes the regulamentation and tell to ferrari and other manufacturers how convert their street cars in race cars. Souless cars. Just my point of view.

[Ferrari333SP]

Toyota calls for Le Mans rules redress after Audi Spa performance

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107259

Sounds like they're cryin' a bit....

[gwyllion]

This is already being discussed in http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3244257

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

ok, the whole argument of yours is based about the fact that AMR choiced to do not win the race... of course is just an opinion of yours (not so agreeable) without any evidence, just to mention that both #51 and #71 received penalities during the race, so the gap could be even worse for aston.
I don't consider ferrari race versions true ferrari's because are race cars built to respect a tech regulamentation written by someone else. Is just a converted street ferrari in my opinion. Cars like 458 italia or f12 berlinetta have been concepted, projected and built by ferrari in absolute freedom. Ferrari engineers and designers MADE the car. Race versions is different, someone else (FIA and ACO) writes the regulamentation and tell to ferrari and other manufacturers how convert their street cars in race cars. Souless cars. Just my point of view.

I suspect you didn't see the race. Aston has been penalized with a drive through, and has suffered the yellow flag before of the pit-stop, so it has lost quite quite a lap for this reason (the same was for the Porsche).
If this casuality would have not happened, result may have been quite different, onsidering Aston was only 10" behind Ferrari, after six hours of race.
After Silverstone, ACO has not changed BoP, and Aston was clearly faster than Ferrari (fact, not opinion). Considering Aston and Ferrari have not been changed since Silverstone, in Spa were closer in laptimes. Considering it was the last race before of Le Mans, the last occasion the revise the BoP, it is clear to my eyes Aston has avoided to show again its superior performances, avoiding to be penalized before of Le Mans.
It's a classic situation.
Porsche and Aston engineers design their cars freely, at the same way of Ferrari's one. But rules are general, and not match to all the cars eligible for this class, so it's necessary to find some adjustments.
This was the case of Maserati, Aston, Corvette, etc.
Maserati was not a regular production car, and its cost was 720.000 €, well over the Enzo's one, against a mere 70.000 € for Corvette and 100.000 € for the Aston.
I don't think it's a so hard reasoning to understand... isn't it?
In this is the case we have 911, Vantage and 458: displacement, cylinders number, number of valves, mechanical disposition, weights... is all different, but freely designed from respective engineers.
To balance this cars is necessary to start by different weights, different restrictors, etc...
Rules made without considering all these aspects are not correct.
Assume we must homologate in the same class a Fiat 500 Abarth and a Nissan 350Z.
Are completely different cars, so it's not possible to apply the same specs (weight, restrictors, etc.).
From competitivity point of view, whatever the rules are, Nissan is clearly advantaged, so it will be necessary to adjust rules to make both the cars on the same level.
That's why Nissan is clearly oversized in confront of the Abarth.
But you cannot help the Abarth till the point to make it faster than Nissan, otherwise we couldn't talk about BoP.
This is the sense of the BoP.
I don't think it's question to be biased or not.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

If the new 911 GTE would be running with standard 1245kg and the base restrictors of 2x28.6mm for a 4.0L, it woule be competitive enough to run with good timelaps for the pole....... of GT-AM class.

Ehm... you seems to forget GTE Am cars are the same of GTE Pro. In fact, Aston Martin Am was as fast as the Pro ones, in Silverstone...
Last year in Le Mans, Am Porsche was faster than Pro one...
You must pay more attention!
Basically, differences are made by drivers, not by cars.

Am= amateur drivers
Pro= professional drivers

P.S.
I won't Porsche may win because it's favoured by BoP, but I won't blind rules may favour a car in confront of another one.

[zanfo zanfagni]

Me have to pay more attention? i don't think so, the winning #51 had to make a stop&go too, did you forget this? Did you forget too that the yellow flag helped a lot the vantage? letting the car make the first refuel after more 100 minutes of race. I watch races, you watch your beloved cars, that's the difference, to end the discussion. AF corse won because they've been better, simple. Your's just speculations, that in my opinion, prodrive guys too would have difficulties to agree. GT-AM use the same cars of GT-PRO? GT-AM must use the previous season car, not the most updated one. Not the same at all, larbre last year used a 2011 spec corvette that is far away different from the 2012 one that they're currently using. My thought was about that if porsche 991 was not helped
as well by bop, it would run in competitive gt-am laptimes = uncompetitive gt-pro laptimes.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

Me have to pay more attention? i don't think so, the winning #51 had to make a stop&go too, did you forget this? Did you forget too that the yellow flag helped a lot the vantage? letting the car make the first refuel after more 100 minutes of race. I watch races, you watch your beloved cars, that's the difference, to end the discussion. AF corse won because they've been better, simple. Your's just speculations, that in my opinion, prodrive guys too would have difficulties to agree. GT-AM use the same cars of GT-PRO? GT-AM must use the previous season car, not the most updated one. Not the same at all, larbre last year used a 2011 spec corvette that is far away different from the 2012 one that they're currently using. My thought was about that if porsche 991 was not helped
as well by bop, it would run in competitive gt-am laptimes = uncompetitive gt-pro laptimes.

I'm a prodrive guy? That's funny!
Aston was in difficult? That's funny!
Watching at the laptimes of GT Am and GT Pro Astons in Silverstone, it seems they were the same, and were better than opponents as in Pro as well in Am.
I didn't see only Porsche race, and what I've seen watching the race is clear in my opinion: Aston was sandbagging before of Le Mans. It was clear watching at Silverstone and Spa performance. I don't think Ferrari has gained so much to be as fast as Aston, considering both the cars are the same of the previous race.
Aston superiority was embarassing in Silverstone, so I don't think they've lost all their advantage without anything has been done...
This doesn't mean AF hasn't done a great race, but in my opinion Aston is a step ahead the others, is the car to beat, but is advantaged due to the unequal BoP.
You may disagree, but this is my point of view.
Then, although Am are one year older than Pro cars, I've not seen a great difference in lap times, as shown by Aston in Silverstone.
I repeat for the last times: GTE rules cannot be adopted for all cars which are different since their born. Can be a Lotus as fast as a Porsche with same weight, if the street car starts already disadvantaged for power and weight? I think is not possible.
Then, don't forget if Bruni had been sanctioned to have hit one of the Porsches, Aston had won the race.

[Dario911]

Porsche drivers are the top of GTE class, I don't think they're people talking just to talk...

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...gt3-rsr-2.html
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...gt3-rsr-3.html

I'm sure things are going to spin in the right way, is only question of time.
It's just second race, and it's ingenuous to draw conclusions after the second race of a completely new car, managed by a team ay its first experience in the WEC...
And results are on the way, despite the old engine...

http://www.porschesport.com/Best%20P...0at%20Spa.html

[insanity_mc]

Hey guys,

We have some pictures the the WEC 6h race in Spa online at our site:
http://www.motorsports-online.net









Greetings

[GT6]

Thanks for that

[TF110]

Great shot in that forst picture you posted here!

[zanfo zanfagni]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Porsche drivers are the top of GTE class, I don't think they're people talking just to talk...

people just to talk in a porsche forum? maybe porsche drivers are the top taken as a team (but don't think so as well, in my opinion corvette #4/#74 is the perfect and most balanced line-up) but the best specialist of GTE is gimmi bruni.

[Mike E]

Were the race position indicator lights (whatever they are called) working at Spa? Hope they are working at LM...

[Dead-Eye]

They were working on most cars except for some P2s due to wiring issues. That should be sorted out for LM.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

They were working on most cars except for some P2s due to wiring issues. That should be sorted out for LM.

[Lorenzo S]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

They were working on most cars except for some P2s due to wiring issues. That should be sorted out for LM.

Toyota #7 kept showing Pos#1 most of the time as well (wishful thinking?!), so I don't know whether the problems were down to individual cars or systemic.