2007 World Champion

bauble · 11 Sep 2013, 12:52 (Ref:3302076)

Some may remember that Kimi only won the World Championship because a certain Felipe Massa (Brazil) who was leading his home Grand Prix, the final race of the season, allowed Raikkonen passed to clinch the title for Ferrari.

A mark of the man who in my opinion was and is the true World Champion of 2008, he lost three races through no fault of his own, while Hamilton lost points in several races all due to his own actions. If there was bad luck about it normally sought out Massa.

My own personal interest in Formula 1 has diminished enormously since the announcement, and my 60 some years of support for the Prancing Horse, does likewise.

Feel free to disagree.

bauble.

Marbot · 11 Sep 2013, 13:01 (Ref:3302084)

If we apply the 'Would have; Could have; Should have' philosophy to any previous F1 season, then the F1 history books would have to be rewritten all over again.

What if Schumacher's Ferrari engine (usually extremely reliable) hadn't blown up at Suzuka in 2006, for example?

Spritle · 11 Sep 2013, 13:04 (Ref:3302085)

As a Tifosi, like you I have seen drivers come and go. It's never easy to see someone like Michael or Felipe get pushed out or someone who I never warmed up to, Kimi come in but it is all about the Scuderia to me.

Ferrari is bigger than the driver so my loyalties remain.

I wish Kimi only the best...NEXT season!

Forza Ferrari!

**Bononi** · 11 Sep 2013, 13:35 (Ref:3302112)

I'm expecting problems, but I guess that's what Montezemolo wants.

Lat time there was two top drivers at Ferrari was Prost/Mansell and things didn't go well.

With two strong personalities in Kimi and Alonso, I can't see a friendly enviroment in the team. My bet is that Alonso will leave by the end of 2014.

bauble · 11 Sep 2013, 13:43 (Ref:3302113)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

If we apply the 'Would have; Could have; Should have' philosophy to any previous F1 season, then the F1 history books would have to be rewritten all over again.

What if Schumacher's Ferrari engine (usually extremely reliable) hadn't blown up at Suzuka in 2006, for example?

Quite agree about could have etc. which is why I said "for me...", few would disagree that not every year has the 'best driver' won, and probably explains why I never won the title.

bauble · 11 Sep 2013, 13:50 (Ref:3302118)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritle

As a Tifosi, like you I have seen drivers come and go. It's never easy to see someone like Michael or Felipe get pushed out or someone who I never warmed up to, Kimi come in but it is all about the Scuderia to me.

Ferrari is bigger than the driver so my loyalties remain.

I wish Kimi only the best...NEXT season!

Forza Ferrari!

I EVEN warmed to Mansell when he drove for Maranello, but while understandable, the dismissal of Massa diminishes the team for me.

I am not trying to prove or justify anything with this thread, only emphasising the value that Felipe brought to Ferrari, and do so 'wearing my heart on my sleeve'.

bauble

Sentimental Old Git.

MarkG · 11 Sep 2013, 15:28 (Ref:3302155)

The OP's bias has made him forget Kimi's bad luck while at McLaren

**Bononi** · 11 Sep 2013, 18:27 (Ref:3302261)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritle

As a Tifosi, like you I have seen drivers come and go. It's never easy to see someone like Michael or Felipe get pushed out or someone who I never warmed up to, Kimi come in but it is all about the Scuderia to me.

Ferrari is bigger than the driver so my loyalties remain.

I wish Kimi only the best...NEXT season!

Forza Ferrari!

Spritle, it's tifoso (did you change it? I thought I read it right?)

bauble · 11 Sep 2013, 18:33 (Ref:3302263)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

The OP's bias has made him forget Kimi's bad luck while at McLaren

Bit lost on this one Mark

Beryl · 11 Sep 2013, 18:38 (Ref:3302266)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

I'm expecting problems, but I guess that's what Montezemolo wants.

Lat time there was two top drivers at Ferrari was Prost/Mansell and things didn't go well.

With two strong personalities in Kimi and Alonso, I can't see a friendly enviroment in the team. My bet is that Alonso will leave by the end of 2014.

Seeing as how Massa beat Kimi, either they are/were both top drivers, or neither are. Either Massa/Kimi was also two top drivers, or Alonso will be the only top driver at Ferrari next year.

**Bononi** · 11 Sep 2013, 19:00 (Ref:3302281)

Kimi had problems at Ferrari in 2008 and lost interest in racing, a funny thing for a racer, but it happened... what makes more odd to think why they wanted him back.

I have to agree with many around the world... Ferrari gone mad. but that's GOOD !

MarkG · 11 Sep 2013, 19:32 (Ref:3302302)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bauble

Bit lost on this one Mark

Well, the OP suggests Massa lost out to Kimi, only because of bad luck etc. That may be true, I can't recall, but if I recall correctly.. Kimi was good enough and fast enough to have won 2 Championships while at McLaren if he didn't have the car failures that he did.

Only my opinion of course, but to me, Kimi was (not sure about IS right now) the best there was in the early to late 2000s. I'm talking outright pace here, not outright application and "being bothered"

bauble · 11 Sep 2013, 19:57 (Ref:3302321)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

Well, the OP suggests Massa lost out to Kimi, only because of bad luck etc. That may be true, I can't recall, but if I recall correctly.. Kimi was good enough and fast enough to have won 2 Championships while at McLaren if he didn't have the car failures that he did.

Only my opinion of course, but to me, Kimi was (not sure about IS right now) the best there was in the early to late 2000s. I'm talking outright pace here, not outright application and "being bothered"

Mark, are you confused or have I lost the plot?
My original post referred to 2008, Kimi won in 2007. 2008 is the year which in my eyes Massa was the Champion.

I have never contended that he lost out to Kimi due to bad luck in any year.

Remember I am 76 years old and have many a Senior Moment so please be gentle.

Regards,

bauble.

Beryl · 11 Sep 2013, 20:05 (Ref:3302326)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Kimi had problems at Ferrari in 2008 and lost interest in racing, a funny thing for a racer, but it happened... what makes more odd to think why they wanted him back.

Ah right, the problems excuse. Did he also have problems in 2007 when Massa out-qualified him and was close to him in race pace? Did he have problems in that half-season in 2009 when Massa held the upper hand as well?

If you discount Massa as you have done, Kimi has never beaten a top driver in the same car, so what makes you think he's as good as you think he is?

**Bononi** · 11 Sep 2013, 20:18 (Ref:3302339)

Uh, wait. I'm not "discounting" Massa. One thing is say he's a top driver, which he is. He has been twice runner up with McLaren and this season he has been up there in the top, challenging the championship. Being outqualified by Massa says more about Massa than Raikkonen.
The last weeks we saw how he's highly wanted in the grid. You may not think he's a top driver or fast or whatever, but to the motorsports community he is, and, well that's true.
I respect your opinion, after all, that's your opinion. All I did was pointing that he had internal problems with Ferrari, and that's odd that they wanted him back.

MarkG · 11 Sep 2013, 20:23 (Ref:3302342)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beryl

Ah right, the problems excuse. Did he also have problems in 2007 when Massa out-qualified him and was close to him in race pace? Did he have problems in that half-season in 2009 when Massa held the upper hand as well?

If you discount Massa as you have done, Kimi has never beaten a top driver in the same car, so what makes you think he's as good as you think he is?

ok, in a Kimi sort of way.. just forget I posted anything
thanks

Beryl · 11 Sep 2013, 20:43 (Ref:3302358)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Uh, wait. I'm not "discounting" Massa. One thing is say he's a top driver, which he is. He has been twice runner up with McLaren and this season he has been up there in the top, challenging the championship. Being outqualified by Massa says more about Massa than Raikkonen.
The last weeks we saw how he's highly wanted in the grid. You may not think he's a top driver or fast or whatever, but to the motorsports community he is, and, well that's true.
I respect your opinion, after all, that's your opinion. All I did was pointing that he had internal problems with Ferrari, and that's odd that they wanted him back.

I respect your opinion as well. I still think Kimi is a very good driver, not as fast as Vettel or Alonso but still faster than most, a driver on the level of Webber, Button and Rosberg. I'm not alone in my opinion, and the popular opinion is not always the right one. I guess we'll see how Kimi does next year, maybe it'll open some eyes.

**Adam43** · 11 Sep 2013, 22:06 (Ref:3302426)

Kimi is better than Webber.

Massa, nice guy, had some good wins. Is F1, Ferrari, or my enjoyment of F1 diminished by this? No. It's just change.

Razzzor · 11 Sep 2013, 22:55 (Ref:3302458)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

Kimi is better than Webber.

Massa, nice guy, had some good wins. Is F1, Ferrari, or my enjoyment of F1 diminished by this? No. It's just change.

Massa might be a nice guy, but there's no interest for him being in a top 4 team. He can't win anymore, even if he had the speed Alonso won't allow him to win. For spectators, what does Massa bring F1 with Ferrari? Nothing really.

wnut · 11 Sep 2013, 23:18 (Ref:3302470)

I think Massa never fully recovered from being hit in the head by the Brawn spring!

You cannot compare his results against his team mates before the head injury and after.:Shrug

Maybe McLaren could be interested?

I still think he is much faster than he is given credit for!

Look at Monza qualifying!

I also believe he has been running a Ferrari development program in the second car!

andy666 · 11 Sep 2013, 23:53 (Ref:3302475)

+1, I hope he stays in F1 . He may be an altogether different driver without the pressure of Ferrari on his shoulders . Whatever happens , all the best and good luck "Felipe Baby" !

Nicholosophy · 12 Sep 2013, 01:11 (Ref:3302491)

He won't be the same without Rob Smedley and I don't see Rob moving teams.

wnut · 12 Sep 2013, 01:38 (Ref:3302498)

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickoGP

He won't be the same without Rob Smedley and I don't see Rob moving teams.

Will be interesting to see how Kimi gets on with Rob!

Rob likes chatting to his drivers apparently, and we all know how well that goes down with the Kimster!

**Bononi** · 12 Sep 2013, 12:33 (Ref:3302692)

It will be interesting to see what will go on between them in the 7 remaining races, some emotional moments are coming.

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