Grid numbers

[socram]

With seemingly ever declining grids across most categories in NZ, maybe it is time for (paying) spectators to be considered?

Correct me if I am wrong, but Club meetings up to and including lower National level meetings are totally financed by drivers/entrants, with minimal meeting sponsorship and a minimal income from spectators, so as long as the organisers/promoters are happy with small grids (ie less than half the permitted numbers), all is OK.

When we get to higher National level, Tier One and Festival events, or any event where spectators have to pay to enter to watch, isn't there an obligation to ensure that the spectators get something to actually watch, other than empty tarmac?

Watching TV again today, with just 11 Utes on a 4.5km track, (yawn) much of it out of sight of paying spectators, aren't organisers guilty of ripping off those spectators when there are more grids less than half full, than more than half full?

If so, what is the fix? Are there just too many poorly supported classes where sponsors are paying for naming rights and air time, as it is cheaper than getting a decent TV ad made?

Are there too many precious drivers in too many classes, who would far rather be a big fish in a little pool, rather than accepting that in days of old, most races had two or three classes anyway?

I'd be interested to see what others think, as watching most TV motorsport is not exactly riveting stuff, even for an enthusiast, let alone the casual watcher.

Watching some meetings live is even worse than TV, particularly with so much processional racing and so many boring, identical cars.

[KRDG]

Good to see this debate but all starting points for this discussion must be to ask why we have an administrator (MSNZ) involved in promotion.

This is the start, middle and end point of the problem and until MSNZ is totally removed from a role they should neither control or have any part of, the status quo will exist.

I cannot be any more direct.

[socram]

At Tier One level, maybe, but most other events are put on, promoted and administered by the Clubs/Organisers themselves.

[raymond]

Originally Posted by KRDG

Good to see this debate but all starting points for this discussion must be to ask why we have an administrator (MSNZ) involved in promotion.

This is the start, middle and end point of the problem and until MSNZ is totally removed from a role they should neither control or have any part of, the status quo will exist.

I cannot be any more direct.

Hi KRDG.
MSNZ is still reluctantly involved in PART promotion of the "Summer Series" only due to the fact that no-one else is interested in promoting it. Once a promoter is found, then we are out of there!
As for MSNZ not having any part, that is incorrect. MSNZ will always be involved in the official side of running a race meeting/series.

But I'm with Socram on this one, the small promotion model that MSNZ is still involved with does not affect grid numbers at 99% of the race meetings around NZ.

[raymond]

Interesting discussion I was involved with recently with officials from 8 other sports in NZ including cycling, rugby, cricket, netball to name some. ALL as governing bodies are involved in the Promotion aspect of their sports. Go figure

[raymond]

Originally Posted by socram

Are there too many precious drivers in too many classes, who would far rather be a big fish in a little pool, rather than accepting that in days of old, most races had two or three classes anyway?

[GT 86]

Originally Posted by raymond

Interesting discussion I was involved with recently with officials from 8 other sports in NZ including cycling, rugby, cricket, netball to name some. ALL as governing bodies are involved in the Promotion aspect of their sports. Go figure

Good point Raymond but you dont see Rugby NZ pouring money into the All Blacks and not super 15, ITM or their contribution to club rugby to ensure they have depth for the future. Nor did you see Rugby NZ continue to pour money into Zac Guilford when they knew he was a lemon. Has an odd sound to it dont you think.

Grid numbers all round are at a low point, not sure if its all time low but if I was MSNZ I would be concerned. We have heard very little from Shayne Harris and Brian Budd in recent times, perhaps they have finally listened to others and kept their personal opinions to themselves due to this ongoing court action which is set to burn the sport even more thanks to people with a gut feeling.

While the economy appears to be on a dramatic improve thanks to the media, it hasnt filtered down to motorsport members pulling their cars out of the garage after having their wings clipped for a few years. The same for the upper level competitors, obviously with vision of NZV8 and V8ST and lack of kiwis in TRS. The commercial sponsorship dollar is still hard to find but are you surprised especially after watching the on and off track fiasco of TRS this year from the balls and all european drivers crashing and bashing to the muppets charged with running the MSNZ side of the meetings. Never have I seen so many bad calls by our race control not to mention the promoting clubs inability to collect broken cars which create regular delays that paying spectators enjoy so much. I apologise to our volunteers for this but we need to get ourselves out of the 80's in all elements of the sport because believe it or not it is 2014.

[Racetroll]

Never have I seen so many bad calls by our race control not to mention the promoting clubs inability to collect broken cars which create regular delays that paying spectators enjoy so much. I apologise to our volunteers for this but we need to get ourselves out of the 80's in all elements of the sport because believe it or not it is 2014.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps if our volunteers had a quarter of the money spent on a race car for training, recruiting, etc we might stand a chance. Feel free to sign up and come out for a day to see how it really works.

[Racetroll]

Socram, part of the problem is the sheer number of race meetings. We are in weekend 9 of the year and about to start race meeting number 7.

With so much choice, competitors and spectators alike can pick and choose - resulting in more race meetings, fewer competitors, burned out, bored volunteers and no spectators.

MSNZ isn't at fault, organising clubs and private promoters are also to blame.

I think Southern Man summed it up quite nicely in another thread - if you think you can do a better job than the Exec, put your hand up. Elections will be held this year...

[socram]

Originally Posted by GT 86

Never have I seen so many bad calls by our race control not to mention the promoting clubs inability to collect broken cars which create regular delays that paying spectators enjoy so much.

Safety, safety, safety.

Whilst I understand your criticism, track design has a lot to do with it but presumably, the biggest problem has always been that particularly in the upper levels, drivers would never slow for yellow flags at incidents and the flaggies/marshals were always at risk, as drivers fighting for position never slowed down. So we had safety cars.

A necessary evil at the moment.

Manfeild and Taupo particularly, drag off stricken cars very quickly by using ATVs or 4WDs into a place of safety.

Neither Pukekohe nor Hampton Downs lend themselves to that sort of arrangement.

Southern tracks - I have no idea.

But I agree with Racetroll, get out there and boost the numbers on a flag point, as ideally, they need two on flags, one observer an incident crew and also a crew on stand down, rotating.

What we do get is a flag point manned by one lonely volunteer, stuck outside in all weathers for the whole of the weekend, watching nine cars pass by with long gaps between races. It's like watching paint dry for them too and if we want their support, we have to have enough cars to keep them interested - hence the thread!

Without them, we are sunk.

Is there too much racing, or I it just badly structured in terms of the calendar. Whereas TRS may want a condensed season, with 5 meetings on the trot, amateurs prefer a max of 6 or 7 meetings a season and preferably with a month apart.

Not so easy if you want to do the Southern Festival of Speed for example, or two weekends of the Hampton Downs Festival.

We had 45 cars at Pukekohe last weekend, across our two series, but for next year, that may well be one grid, although that may upset some of our drivers, they have to face the reality. If it means they have to get their entries in early to avoid being placed on a reserve list, so much the better.

For our April 20th meeting, at Hampton Downs, we are currently two grids short, so this may well be a loss making event and the last one we'll run, as we can't run meetings at a loss.

Yes, probably too many classes, too many of them with less than a quarter grid. Its killing the sport. Better to have half the number of race meetings and let the track run the increasingly popular track days which are also more profitable for the circuits and there is virtually no red tape, no permits, no licences, few marshals. Just an ambulance.

[CDM]

Continually seeing low grid numbers on the track doesn't encourage anyone to become more involved, be that sponsors, spectators, competitors, clubs nor promoters.

Starting at the top, things like giving the TR86 cars championship status for 7 cars is just plain ridiculous. Yes I know Toyota pour mega $$$$$$$$ into TRS, but the reality is who wants to see a 7 car field at our top level meetings. Put them in with something else until they have say 15 as a minimum (wasn’t that the debateable Gold Star’ number). Like the Suzuki (RIP) Swift Sport cup were in production racing initially then got their own race. The same with these new Ssangyoung Utes. Watching CRC motorsport I see they have sold 4 to date. Great…fire them in with the other dwindling Ute class until they also regularly get 15 minimum as well. Challenge Cup is the same, run as part of the V8ST race or cut them loose to NZV8’s to bolster their grids. I know that these are pipe dreams…. the problem is that there are too many people in our sport for themselves rather than for the sport.

If you can’t get 15 cars for your class race then the class cant have its own race and will be combined into a free for all race with other classes that don’t have 15. Perhaps this may also ensure that guys encourage their fellow competitors to compete, or else all competitors in that classes car values will drop if there is no specific class for them.

As an example, there is a two day meet at Levels this weekend. Two days out of busy lives for volunteers, drivers & crews, spectators etc. All to see fields with under 10 cars. The only decent field is the OSCA/Sports saloons (which as a great move are combined this year anyway) and they have added in the Clubman’s all combined into one big race. What a great idea, if they were to combine the Mini7, RX7 & NZ6 classes they could possibly make it a single day meeting.

The advantage for that is as well as reducing the event costs of St John, volunteers lunches etc, plus it gives everyone involved an extra day for family etc. Then get rid of the time delay between races one grid rolling out as one comes in, speed the day up. If competitors aren't ready for their next race bad luck, the punter on the bank sees the same amount of action in a much shorter time which must be good. But for goodness sakes have one big start for combined races, not this split grid bs. If (for example) the fastest Mini races with the slowest RX7 then who cares, both drivers are racing (that’s what they are there for after all) and the spectators get a decent race to watch, with cars with different strengths & weaknesses rather than the single car formula we have thrust upon us.

Just my 2 cents worth...

[socram]

That was worth 4 cents! Totally agree.

The likes of Toyota, Ssang Yong, Suzuki and any current one make series (ignore Alfa Trofeo, they are running older cars) are there for just two reasons:

1) To sell more cars
2) Television coverage gives more air time for less cost and is hopefully seen by more people than a 1 minutes ad between Shorty St sections.

At the lower levels, these issues don't apply and the meetings are generally unsponsored so have to be viable from race entry fees.

[CDM]

Originally Posted by socram

That was worth 4 cents!

4 cents in the North is about 2 in the South so that's about right!

Originally Posted by socram

The likes of Toyota, Ssang Yong, Suzuki and any current one make series (ignore Alfa Trofeo, they are running older cars) are there for just two reasons:
1) To sell more cars
2) Television coverage gives more air time for less cost and is hopefully seen by more people than a 1 minutes ad between Shorty St sections.

& yep the manufacturers (maybe not Toyota quite as much) are one of the parties in it for themselves rather than the actual sport. Just look how many have been & gone.

and re the Alfa's as Classic racing isn't really my 'thing' I didn't & cant pass comment on that side of things, but do they or the likes of the popular BMW series get much from Alfa or BMW? I would suspect not.

[raymond]

Originally Posted by CDM

Continually seeing low grid numbers on the track doesn't encourage anyone to become more involved, be that sponsors, spectators, competitors, clubs nor promoters.

Starting at the top, things like giving the TR86 cars championship status for 7 cars is just plain ridiculous. Yes I know Toyota pour mega $$$$$$$$ into TRS, but the reality is who wants to see a 7 car field at our top level meetings. Put them in with something else until they have say 15 as a minimum (wasn’t that the debateable Gold Star’ number). Like the Suzuki (RIP) Swift Sport cup were in production racing initially then got their own race. The same with these new Ssangyoung Utes. Watching CRC motorsport I see they have sold 4 to date. Great…fire them in with the other dwindling Ute class until they also regularly get 15 minimum as well. Challenge Cup is the same, run as part of the V8ST race or cut them loose to NZV8’s to bolster their grids. I know that these are pipe dreams…. the problem is that there are too many people in our sport for themselves rather than for the sport.

If you can’t get 15 cars for your class race then the class cant have its own race and will be combined into a free for all race with other classes that don’t have 15. Perhaps this may also ensure that guys encourage their fellow competitors to compete, or else all competitors in that classes car values will drop if there is no specific class for them.

As an example, there is a two day meet at Levels this weekend. Two days out of busy lives for volunteers, drivers & crews, spectators etc. All to see fields with under 10 cars. The only decent field is the OSCA/Sports saloons (which as a great move are combined this year anyway) and they have added in the Clubman’s all combined into one big race. What a great idea, if they were to combine the Mini7, RX7 & NZ6 classes they could possibly make it a single day meeting.

The advantage for that is as well as reducing the event costs of St John, volunteers lunches etc, plus it gives everyone involved an extra day for family etc. Then get rid of the time delay between races one grid rolling out as one comes in, speed the day up. If competitors aren't ready for their next race bad luck, the punter on the bank sees the same amount of action in a much shorter time which must be good. But for goodness sakes have one big start for combined races, not this split grid bs. If (for example) the fastest Mini races with the slowest RX7 then who cares, both drivers are racing (that’s what they are there for after all) and the spectators get a decent race to watch, with cars with different strengths & weaknesses rather than the single car formula we have thrust upon us.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Yes! Absolutely agree. Been my line of thinking for years...now just have to convince the competitors and classes that they are not the rock stars they think they are for this to happen.....

P.S. As for one-make series, it is in the Strategic Plan and race-blueprint that we must have a one-make series. They have a limited lifespan as history shows us, so by the time people invest in the second or third season, they have lost half of the competition life of that car. TR86 is a good concept and a great little car...but $80K?????? Hmmmm

[socram]

Yup. Toyota have been in it for the long haul and even though there weren't many Kiwis this season, it was a good international field. I'd be happy if they just stuck to the TRS though, as numbers seem acceptable and NZ does need a premier single seater class.

Alfa would almost certainly get nothing but I suspect (I don't really know) BMW have been sympathetic, given the BMW Festival last year at HD.

[Goat Boy]

Just put the NZV8's and ST's together and stop the silliness

[raymond]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Just put the NZV8's and ST's together and stop the silliness

Was looking for the like button to click