[ELMS] Is there room for an LMP2+ category?

[ger80]

I think it also depends on what engines LMP3 will run. If LMP3 run a LMPC type powertrain, then it would be nice to give a bit more power to LMP2.
I think the ACO expected more engine variety when they introduced the stock based LMP2 engines. It would be nice to open the regulations a bit more to get different engines. The cost cap should still apply.

[Maelochs]

I love the idea but I cannot see it working.

I think a class of basic racing cars--like P2--with a little more rubber, a little more power, and a little more developmental freedom would be a huge addition o t both TUSC and ELMS--for the spectator and assuming at least ten of said cars could affrod to make the grid each race.

Problems though--for instance, suddenly P and LMP2 become secondary classes and their value to sponsors drops. Another issue is cost containment--once development is allowed, cost containment (and the policing thereof) becomes a lot more difficult.

With P2s being homologated, factories can sell them at the required price point and try to make up the losses via parts and spares. Teams cannot change anything so only the factory has to be scrutinized, and only until homologation.

if development is allowed, cost-caps become increasingly expensive to maintain. Thing is without cost-caps, the rich teams drive out everyone else and then leave.

I'd love to see it happen--sort of LPMP1-bis or LMP2-Plus, where the teams could widen the fenders, crank on the engines, play games with the aero and go for it--a top class that was really a premier class, where a bunch of interesting and exciting things were happening, and if half the cars broke or were slower with this week's changes, they'd be back next time with different mods--and enough horsepower to get past the P2s safely.

I just don't see it working economically. I don't even think the economics of a P2 class with more open rules would work right now, though that may change over the next couple of years if enough big sponsors start to see a value in the sport.

[Speed-King]

I don't even think the economics of a P2 class with more open rules would work right now, though that may change over the next couple of years if enough big sponsors start to see a value in the sport.

That's why I'd stick with a "one-shot" homologation for the time being, just switch out the drive trains for something a little more respectable... You really know that there's something terribly lobsided in a series when the most powerful cars are in the lowest class as is the case right now in ELMS.

450bhp simply doesn't sound very impressive these days when Toyota are bragging about 1000, and even FWD-cars in VLN are well north of 400....

[The Badger]

Oh please ..... there is already enough sub class's without adding another .

P2 was originally set up for the privateer while the big guys do P1 . If you cant afford P2 , you shouldn't be tryin .

[IndyMeister]

Originally Posted by The Badger

P2 was originally set up for the privateer while the big guys do P1 . If you cant afford P2 , you shouldn't be tryin.

That sums it up pretty well.

The "+" might also increase costs for LMP2 as well. To my mind LMP2 works well from a techically point of view.

[madfast]

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/b...p1-privateers/

“We have to protect them because manufacturers come and go [in a snap],” Beaumesnil said. “If you remember in 1999, we had six manufacturers on the grid [at Le Mans]. In 2000, there was only one remaining.

“We need to keep privateers in LMP1.”

seems like LMP1-L isnt going away any time soon... i hope the 2017 LMP2 cars turn out to be production engined versions of these cars...

[ger80]

Originally Posted by madfast

“We need to keep privateers in LMP1.”

seems like LMP1-L isnt going away any time soon... i hope the 2017 LMP2 cars turn out to be production engined versions of these cars...

Why production based? Why not a race engine with cost cap? Even F3 went for race engines now after years and years of being production based

[Deleted]

I think Cadillac and Panoz would not like that 2000 comment so much

Anyway, this bit is funny:“You cannot give an artificial advantage to win the race,” Beaumesnil said. “You can just give some help to be in the game and if something happens in the front, they will be there and will be much closer than last year for sure.”

When you compare it to GTE and my sig...

Anyway thankfully they have not yet went bonkers in P1 too

[madfast]

Originally Posted by ger80

Why production based? Why not a race engine with cost cap? Even F3 went for race engines now after years and years of being production based

i assume its more attractive for manufacturers. loosen up the engine regulations a bit and we should see a lot more variety and some more power.

[ger80]

Originally Posted by madfast

i assume its more attractive for manufacturers. loosen up the engine regulations a bit and we should see a lot more variety and some more power.

They are loose already, see http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1tk...sources/35.htm

[David Land]

P1-L should just be P2. Problem solved.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by David Land

P1-L should just be P2. Problem solved.

To me:

P2 chassis with road derivated engine = LMP2
P2 chassis with lmp1 engine = private LMP1 (or LMP1-L)

[madfast]

Originally Posted by ger80

They are loose already, see http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1tk...sources/35.htm

im talking about displacement limits, boost limits, etc. they should just do what LMP1 does and use fuel flow meters. for instance the 3.5L ecoboost V6 should be allowed to lure ford back to le mans.

[ger80]

My point is that a lot of road engine block are not very suitable to get converted into a LMP2 engine. Judd is using an old BMW engine for a reason. If you take away the requirement for being road based, more people would be able to provide an engine.

[Mike E]

All pro LMP2 to be considered by ACO.

http://racer.com/latest-stories/item...-format-change

And a suggestion of where the pressure is coming from.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/o...re-in-fia-wec/

[Speed-King]

There's a bit more in the original interview with Dumas where he also talks about the relation between privateer P1s and P2:

« Oui mais il va falloir que des équipes relèvent le défi pour les faire rouler. Soit on donne un coup de boost �* la catégorie LM P2 et on arrête les LM P1-L, soit on met en avant les LM P1-L et on arrête les LM P2. La catégorie LM P2 a un intérêt certain, c’est indéniable. Il doit y avoir des discussions avec les organisateurs et une annonce doit être faite rapidement. Il en va de la pérennité du LM P2 en FIA WEC. Dans le cas contraire, ce sera compliqué… Je reste persuadé que l’on peut attirer des jeunes pilotes s’il y a un lien avec les constructeurs au niveau des pilotes. On pourrait voir un Junior Team par exemple. »

So, AIUI, he thinks only one or the other can be succesful, as they'll cannibalize entries off eachother...

[NaBUru38]

Well, yes. With the current economic conditions, LMP1 Lites and LMP2 can't coexist.

Solving the issue requires to attract as many teams to the class as possible, while preventing teams from leaving.

Bosses should do a clear, stable plan, and keep it. At the same time, the plan must be the right one. If they do a bad plan, or they change it unexpectedly, it's bad for the championship.

Dropping a class earlier than expected is bad. Proposing this and that every few months is bad.

[Maelochs]

One reason to use production-based engines (and none of the existing engine suppliers seem to find it an onerous burden) is to get manufacturers interested---and to defray costs.

Which companies are interested in building very small runs of pure race engines for a low-budget class? Pretty much none. One the other hand, plenty of companies build engines suitable for GTE or other GT series, many of which just happen to be legal in P2. What a happy coincidence.

To me that is the obvious cost-saving idea---let manufacturers use existing stock-based racing engines (and a Lot of manufacturers have them---even Kia for gosh sake) in their P2s.

The problem with even a cost-capped pure racing engine is balance. Someone could come along, do some accounting trickery, and produce a smaller, lighter, higher-revving, more powerful and torquier engine than anyone else had and drive the manufacturers away, then go broke in a few seasons once the class was ruined, and there we are---ruined.

Stick with GT-type engines. Don't break what works. Only fix what doesn't.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

One reason to use production-based engines (and none of the existing engine suppliers seem to find it an onerous burden) is to get manufacturers interested---and to defray costs.

Which companies are interested in building very small runs of pure race engines for a low-budget class? Pretty much none. One the other hand, plenty of companies build engines suitable for GTE or other GT series, many of which just happen to be legal in P2. What a happy coincidence.

To me that is the obvious cost-saving idea---let manufacturers use existing stock-based racing engines (and a Lot of manufacturers have them---even Kia for gosh sake) in their P2s.

The problem with even a cost-capped pure racing engine is balance. Someone could come along, do some accounting trickery, and produce a smaller, lighter, higher-revving, more powerful and torquier engine than anyone else had and drive the manufacturers away, then go broke in a few seasons once the class was ruined, and there we are---ruined.

Stick with GT-type engines. Don't break what works. Only fix what doesn't.

I agree with you, I like this.
I also think they should unite LMP1-L and LMP2 in only one category.
I would like the Aston Martin V12 engine return to LMP1-L

[MagVanisher]

Well, I would like to have diesels in the combined LMP2 class, as well as Wankel engines. Although the latter can't be done 'cause Mazda discontinued it.