[WEC Race] 2014 FIA WEC - Round 2 - Spa

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by joeb

If you go back and check the start of the Laguna Seca race last weekend I think you will find that TUSC did indeed have a split start. It might only be a few hundred yards, but split nonetheless.

Just on the PC/GTD race, not on the 'Pro race' if I remember correctly.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by CTD

Are we sure that these split starts isn't just the cause of the Safety car pulling in early, and the Prototypes utilizing their acceleration advantage?

I would think the field would have been more spread out if that were the case, P2 can't keep up with their more powerful hybrid P1 brothers.

[Gingers4Justice]

When I saw the split starts, both times I thought "oh, that's a bit new". I then concentrated on the rest of the race and haven't given it a further thought since.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that this is yet another stick to beat the series with.

There are lots of things wrong with the WEC, but is this one worth getting het up about?

Just my tuppence.

[Deleted]

It's something that I was very afraid USCC was going to utilize thanks to Grand-Am history. But while they have done many many things wrong with that series, they rather shockingly did not use it, which was great. This is not.

Anyway, as long as they don't use it at Le Mans I'm willing to shut up about it from now on. It's the only race that really matters.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

When I saw the split starts, both times I thought "oh, that's a bit new". I then concentrated on the rest of the race and haven't given it a further thought since.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that this is yet another stick to beat the series with.

There are lots of things wrong with the WEC, but is this one worth getting het up about?

Just my tuppence.

What a terrible attitude, you must hate this. You must be outraged! Change something and you must be annoyed as that is the motorsport fan way. You must like change and are willing to consider new ideas or something.

There are, as always, pros and cons. The cons are a missed chance to hear all the cars at once. The ability for maybe a lower class to challenge a higher class. That is unlikely nowadays. The pro is that for a spectator at the circuit you get two starts to watch and it gives a little more emphasis to the GT classes at the start. And it allows cleaner racing in the GT class. Those drivers and teams might actually like it.

[Deleted]

Okay one more say to this:

With prototype-GT split you would have never seen the 2011 Spa 1000km where #8 Pug qualified 50th and had to force it's way through traffic. Because with this nonsense they'd artificially put you in front of all the GTs.

Or this, one of my fav sportscar racing onboards ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdeUyvX6mFM

[tux]

Like it or not there are bigger issues facing WEC than split grids.

[Paradise City]

If officialdom are detracting from the sport for unnecessary reasons that discloses a bad mindset.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by bernard b

some pics of mine from Spa

Great shots there Bernard !

[isynge]

My understanding is that the whole "split grid" thing came relatively recently from De Freitas instructing the GT leader to hang back in the run up to start, avoiding the risk of a monumental coming together in circumstances like Paul Ricard (remember 2011?).

I don't see it as a hard and fast "rule", not least because it appears nowhere in the regs. In circumstances like Spa La Source can cause chaos - with bent cars everywhere (not good with smaller grids I take it?); and do we really think that the sort of gap we saw this year would really have stopped a great fightback drive like the #8 Peugeot Chiana mentioned, or Bouillon's in the Pescarolo at Silverstone in 2009? I suspect the couple of hundred metres we're talking about would have been inconsequential.

I have seen no mention anywhere that suggests all prototypes will be corralled in front of GTs regardless of where they qualify.

[lemansfan]

Originally Posted by bernard b

some pics of mine from Spa

Excellent Job

[GT6]

Thanks for posting those photo's Bernard

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by isynge

I have seen no mention anywhere that suggests all prototypes will be corralled in front of GTs regardless of where they qualify.

If not, then the process of split start becomes (even more) pointless. What exactly would you archieve with the split process if you had a grid like Silverstone 2013:

1. P1 Wurz/Lapierre Toyota 1m48.021s
2. P1 Davidson/Buemi/Sarrazin Toyota 1m49.995s + 1.974s
3. P1 Kristensen/Duval/Mcnish Audi 1m51.283s + 3.262s
4. P1 Prost/Jani/Heidfeld Rebellion Lola-Toyota 1m52.124s + 4.103s
5. P1 Lotterer/Treluyer/Fassler Audi 1m53.488s + 5.467s
6. P1 Belicchi/Beche/Cheng Rebellion Lola-Toyota 1m53.835s + 5.814s
7. P2 Graves/Pizzonia/Walker Delta-ADR ORECA-Nissan 1m55.148s
8. P2 Pla/Heinemeier Hansson/Brundle OAK Morgan-Nissan 1m57.629s + 2.481s
9. P2 Rusinov/Martin/Conway Delta-ADR ORECA-Nissan 1m57.697s + 2.549s
10. P2 Baguette/Gonzalez/Plowmann OAK Morgan-Nissan 1m58.729s + 3.581s
11. GTE P Turner/Mucke/Senna Aston Martin 2m00.566s
12. GTE P Dalla Lana/Makowiecki/Lamy Aston Martin 2m00.772s + 0.206s
13. GTE A Goethe/Hall/Campbell-Walter Aston Martin 2m01.158s
14. GTE P Bergmeister/Pilet/Bernhard Manthey Porsche 2m01.308s + 0.742s
15. GTE P Lieb/Lietz/Dumas Manthey Porsche 2m01.452s + 0.886s
16. GTE P Bruni/Fisichella AF Ferrari 2m01.512s + 0.946s
17. GTE A Nygaard/Poulsen/Simonsen Aston Martin 2m01.544s + 0.386s
18. P2 Holzer/Kraihamer/Charouz Lotus-Praga 2m01.555s + 6.407s
19. GTE P Kobayashi/Vilander AF Ferrari 2m01.803s + 1.237s
20. P2 Weeda/Liuzzi/Bouchut Lotus-Praga 2m02.144s + 6.996s
21. GTE A Gerber/Griffin/Cioci AF Ferrari 2m02.396s + 1.238s
22. P2 Perez Companc/Minassian/Kaffer Pecom ORECA-Nissan 2m02.454s + 7.306s
23. GTE A Potolicchio/Aguas/Peter 8Star Ferrari 2m02.513s + 1.355s
24. GTE A Bornhauser/Canal/Rees Larbre Corvette 2m02.862s + 1.704s
25. P2 Imperatori/Howson/Ka To KCMG Morgan-Nissan 2m02.991s + 7.843s
26. GTE A Narac/Bourret/Vernay IMSA Porsche 2m04.176s + 3.018s
27. P2 Dyson/Marsal/Kimber-Smith Greaves Zytek-Nissan 2m04.491s + 9.343s
28. GTE A Krohn/Jonsson/Mediani Krohn Ferrari 2m05.482s + 4.324s
29. P2 Nicolet/Merlin OAK Morgan-Nissan 2m10.475s + 15.327s
30. P1 Leventis/Watts/Kane Strakka HPD

[Gingers4Justice]

Split start or not, in that Silverstone race all the P2 cars started ahead of the GT cars. The P2s were slower because it was damp for the prototype qually session.

It would have been absolute chaos going into the village loop if the P2s started like that.

[Ginaro Zukovsky]

Originally Posted by isynge

My understanding is that the whole "split grid" thing came relatively recently from De Freitas instructing the GT leader to hang back in the run up to start, avoiding the risk of a monumental coming together in circumstances like Paul Ricard (remember 2011?).

I have seen no mention anywhere that suggests all prototypes will be corralled in front of GTs regardless of where they qualify.

His name is Eduardo Freitas, and according to the Silverstone commentary it was a suggestion from the clerk of the course (maybe they meant Eduardo) if the GT drivers wanted to leave a gap.

According to Stewards decision No. 7 at Spa they instructed the rebuilt SMP car to start at the back of the LMPs for safety reasons, which is fair enough as it's obviously faster than the GTE cars.

I'd say a small gap is acceptable - it saved the GTC cars at Baltimore after all.

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by tux

Like it or not there are bigger issues facing WEC than split grids.

Actually this is true. If you think what other issues there are, whining about split starts seems quite pathetic. Because the bigger issues IMO would be:

Races at sanitized Tilkedromes like Bahrain and Shanghai.

Poor marketing, especially when the live stream became paid. Other example of poor marketing was the race at CotA last year.

World Endurance Championship? Why not World Sportscar Championship? Actually this is related to my second issue, poor marketing.

And the last one is the six-hour format. Why on earth they can't have different race distances like 9 hours or 3 hours or races with a certain distance?

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by BudLightJaguar

Actually this is true. If you think what other issues there are, whining about split starts seems quite pathetic. Because the bigger issues IMO would be:

Races at sanitized Tilkedromes like Bahrain and Shanghai.

Poor marketing, especially when the live stream became paid. Other example of poor marketing was the race at CotA last year.
Got to agree about the live stream bit. They should have communicated better.

World Endurance Championship? Why not World Sportscar Championship? Actually this is related to my second issue, poor marketing.
There was a WEC endurance championship before just like the WSC.

And the last one is the six-hour format. Why on earth they can't have different race distances like 9 hours or 3 hours or races with a certain distance?
When you create something to market you have to make sure it's recognisable. Having races with then 3 hours then 6 then 9 then 13,5 just doesn't make any sense unless it has historic value. (I would love to see sebring on the calendar with it's 12 hour race). Races with a certain distance are not easy to fit into a tv schedule. If the Spa race was 1000 km's it would have ended in 4,5 hours. If it had rained it might have lasted for 8.

.

[Paradise City]

I've discussed at length the issue of the live stream in other threads and that in my view is at the heart of the marketing effort. The free live stream drew in curious punters, that, a simple SEO effort, straightforward cooperation with manufacturers in the real world would see a firm base develop. Putting in paywalls will deter the curious though and antagonise some current fans. The free live stream had the potential to be the centrepiece of a profitable marketing effort, they spurned that.

The LMP1 cars look too similar to each other and are too chunky. That's the one tough problem that I've no ready answer for.

All the other problems, like split grids, live streams represent just completely unnecessary stupidity.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

The LMP1 cars look too similar to each other and are too chunky. That's the one tough problem that I've no ready answer for.

I guess it's all opinions. The looks are one thing but I didn't think the P1 cars could be charged with looking too similar...I can't think of any other top-line series where the cars look so different.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I guess it's all opinions. The looks are one thing but I didn't think the P1 cars could be charged with looking too similar...I can't think of any other top-line series where the cars look so different.

This, You could argue that all the group c cars look to similar... It's just that Audi and Porsche are not the most imaginative with their livery designs.

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by NelisB

And the last one is the six-hour format. Why on earth they can't have different race distances like 9 hours or 3 hours or races with a certain distance?
When you create something to market you have to make sure it's recognisable. Having races with then 3 hours then 6 then 9 then 13,5 just doesn't make any sense unless it has historic value. (I would love to see sebring on the calendar with it's 12 hour race). Races with a certain distance are not easy to fit into a tv schedule. If the Spa race was 1000 km's it would have ended in 4,5 hours. If it had rained it might have lasted for 8.

I really don't agree with this! I think a big part of what makes sportscar racing so great is the variety in tracks, cars, race lenght etc. and I think the WEC should take a lot more advantage of this.

As for historic value, since Le Mans is the only stand out race of the WEC season and Sebring, Petit and Daytona looking very unlikely to ever feature in the calendar they need to create their own classics.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by NelisB

When you create something to market you have to make sure it's recognisable. Having races with then 3 hours then 6 then 9 then 13,5 just doesn't make any sense unless it has historic value. (I would love to see sebring on the calendar with it's 12 hour race). Races with a certain distance are not easy to fit into a tv schedule. If the Spa race was 1000 km's it would have ended in 4,5 hours. If it had rained it might have lasted for 8.

No it wouldn't because the format was 1000km or 6 Hours, whichever came first. Usually took little over 5 hours.

Old WSC had plenty of variety in format, ranging from short sprints to proper endurances. They certainly had no problem with it. The standardized 6 hour length is also pointless in a sense that these cars are all so reliable nowadays that the distance feels just unnecessary. It's not real real endurance like 10 or 12 or 24 pr whatever, just something in between. 500km/3h would be perfectly fine for regular rounds. Easier for the much stressed "TV package" as well.

I think that the 2010 Paul Ricard 8 Hours has been the only ACO sanctioned race for a veeeeeeery long time that had different distance than all the rest of the races that season (if you don't count Le Mans and IMSA-relied ILMC/WEC Sebring and PLM). Otherwise they just always put the same boring distance for all the races

ALMS was awesome in this respect. 100 minutes, 2h, 2h45min, 4h, 6h, 10h/1000miles, 12h. They showed you don't need to scretch these races for no reason, except when it really mattered in the longer events. Made them stand out more. Also easier to have joint weekends with other series like IndyCar etc.

Having shorter races would be one further reason to can the stupid WEC title in favour of WSC. Yes I did thought that WEC was misleading back in the day too, pretty much anything is better than that. Also Endurance says absolutely nothing to common folk (trust me nobody gets it when I've attempted to explain it) but World Sportscar Championship does.

Also
FIA WORLD ENDURANCE CHAMPIONSHIP
FIM WORLD ENDURANCE CHAMPIONSHIP
It does have a similar ring to it, dont ya think.

I believe it was deggis who said that they originally probably decided to go with WEC because Ratel's GTWC was still around back then - you know to avoid confusion - but that is gone now so they could easily revert to WSC.

[AndyS]

Watched the highlights show last night. I didn't find this race as interesting as Silverstone, although I was particularly tired and doing the nodding dog bit a one point, so possible not in the best frame of mind. Still enjoyable though and still intrigued to watch more.

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I think that the 2010 Paul Ricard 8 Hours has been the only ACO sanctioned race for a veeeeeeery long time that had different distance than all the rest of the races that season (if you don't count Le Mans and IMSA-relied ILMC/WEC Sebring and PLM). Otherwise they just always put the same boring distance for all the races

Le Mans Series Mil Milhas Brasil 2007 was 1000 miles.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by airbusA346

Le Mans Series Mil Milhas Brasil 2007 was 1000 miles.

True! Also Zhuhai 2010 was 6 hours (back then they were still 1000kms) but that was probably used as precursor to 2011. And AsLMS 2009 Okayama was 500+500(=1000km) but that was one-off weekend.

Anyway they are still sole exceptions in the sea of standardized formats.