[ELMS Race] ELMS round 3: Red Bull Ring

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Simmi

It is second-tier but it's actually producing some of the best and most intriguing sportscar racing this year.

The Pro-Am element ensures the races are open right until the end and there's a great tactical element. There's more wheel-to-wheel racing than we've seen in previous years. Some great drivers and guys who also will be WEC stalwarts in future years.

I enjoy the races infinitely more than what it feels like I'm enduring while watching TUSC. It just doesn't have that "must-watch" buzz to it which I only really get for the WEC.

I could have watched it live yesterday but opted not to and now I'm watching it back on delay, same as Imola. So I can't bemoan the lack of posts.

I find just the reverse is true — that ELMS is compelling while the WEC is simply tedious to watch. The Pro-Am classes in ELMS are simply better (more cars) than those in the WEC and there’s more at stake as well — ELMS P2 and GTE-AM teams are effectively auditioning for invites to Le Mans, and the consequences for not getting an invite could include a team being forced to shut down.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

I find just the reverse is true — that ELMS is compelling while the WEC is simply tedious to watch. The Pro-Am classes in ELMS are simply better (more cars) than those in the WEC and there’s more at stake as well — ELMS P2 and GTE-AM teams are effectively auditioning for invites to Le Mans, and the consequences for not getting an invite could include a team being forced to shut down.

Yeah but the invites have sort of lost their worth because you can just buy yourself Le Mans garagw slot by entering WEC next year, zero effort... also as Risi showed this year, just because you receive automatic invite doesn't mean you actually get one (okay Risi's Krohn Racing camourflage thingie was different was but the point still stands)

And again as for me, it's just wrong to have ALL categories as pro-am. Yes I can understand the (soon to be resurrected) junior proto class and GTs, even what was GT2, but when you have your premiere class limited to proam-costcap-privateers as well it just kinda makes it have more club feel to it...

I mean just think of it, six years ago:

Le Mans - 4 classes without restrictions in drivers, budget, factory/privateer (technically not even P2)
Le Mans Series - 4 classes without restrictions in drivers, budget, factory/privateer (technically not even P2)
American Le Mans Series - 4 classes without restrictions in drivers, budget, factory/privateer

And now:

Le Mans / FIA WEC - out of 4 classes 2 are proam (of which one is cost capped and privateer-only and the another one exists to artificially split the class in two for 'amateurs') + separate sub class for P1 privateers only
Le Mans Series - all 3 classes are proam (of which one is cost-capped) and all -in truth- privateer only
United Sportscar Championship - out of 4 classes 2 are proam (of which one (or two in truth) is privateer only)) + some cars in another category are cost-capped
Asian Le Mans Series - all 3 classes are proam (of which one (or two?) is cost-capped)) and all -in truth- privateer only

Next year we'll (re-)get another proam category for ELMS, but hopefully - by the look of things - LMP2 goes back to unlimited in terms of drivers in WEC/LM

[SpikerJack]

Yes but no gentleman means no money.. Except for the factory teams!!

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by SpikerJack

Yes but no gentleman means no money.. Except for the factory teams!!

My stock response

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

My stock response

The world is not the same as it was back then, so that point of view doesn't seem valid to me any longer tbh. Class wins for gentleman drivers give them better return on their investment than running around in a pack behind the all-pro squads in the same class, and right now without RoI... everyone bails out in the end and everything dies. People (by which I mean richer petrolheads) don't have the same amount of money to burn on racing that they had 6 years ago FFS.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

The world is not the same as it was back then, so that point of view doesn't seem valid to me any longer tbh. Class wins for gentleman drivers give them better return on their investment than running around in a pack behind the all-pro squads in the same class.

Of course it does, hell if six years ago you would've asked JMB Racing or whoever smaller team whether they'd wanna race against AF Corse & Felbermayr Proton or rather not (or think of similar proam situation in P2) and still gonna be able to fight for similar trophy, we all know what they would have answered. Obviously ROI is better if your chance of winning is artificially amplified exponentially.

The world is the same (whatever financial situation is), the ideology is not. Because everybody has got so used of sub-class proam cost cap privateer separations, it is automatically expected that your series have that solution for you. Or, as ELMS now shows, many solutions...

indeedy ACO...

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The world is the same (whatever financial situation is)

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject, but in my view this is the root of this situation. The world is in flux all around, racing series must adapt to stay alive (as does everything).

[bella]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

I find just the reverse is true — that ELMS is compelling while the WEC is simply tedious to watch. The Pro-Am classes in ELMS are simply better (more cars) than those in the WEC and there’s more at stake as well — ELMS P2 and GTE-AM teams are effectively auditioning for invites to Le Mans, and the consequences for not getting an invite could include a team being forced to shut down.

i agree.

i think you're mostly all missing the point. you're all so absorbed in the minutae of detail that you're not looking and seeing the big picture. i think in any form of the sport comparisons to the past are pointless, what you have to look at is the position of a series within the existing scene and whether it's making the most of the available potential market.

and even on a basic level... the races are absolutely superb. i'm disappointed that so many people can't look past their own opinion to just watch the racing. that is, after all, what we're there for.

[Maelochs]

I second Bella's idea.

I don't care if someone tells me the cars aren't "relevant" or the class structure is not "correct" or any of that.

Saturday's race was extremely entertaining, with good battles in all classes, plenty to watch, and some really pretty cars that were quite fast.

Apparently ELMS is doing okay with this format---I can't understand how,. but the evidence was on my computer screen.

Not to dismiss anyone's arguments or complaints, just stating that personally I am exceedingly glad that I can watch this series.

[Deleted]

The definition of "absolutely superb" race, like everything, is in the eye of the beholder. Furthermore it's not just about the on-track action but the whole package, the whole experience that is being served on plate.

[bella]

i don't get it. there was strategy, drama, close and clean racing, lots of sub-stories and some quality entertainment. each chassis and team has different merits and each one is bearing fruit to varying degrees.

if you've got beef with the semantics, then fine, whatever. but by letting that cloud your judgement you're missing out on some pretty cool stuff on track. i've got some pretty big issues with the attitude of the aco when it comes to certain aspect of our sport but when it comes down to it and the cars are on the grid it doesn't *really* matter. at least give the guys racing some respect for what they're doing.

what's more irritating to be honest is that people keep on banging their drum moaning about the same old nonsense when there's seriously good quality drives and team efforts going on. that ligier is flippin' quick. chatin is really, really good (told you so). so's tincknell. that's just in lmp2. but what are you guys moaning about? maths.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

They should encourage some teams to buy TUSC-style Daytona Prototypes---that would get the boards active again.

unlikely for now, maybe from 2017 and on, will be allowed custom bodyworks for lmp2 also in ELMS

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The definition of "absolutely superb" race, like everything, is in the eye of the beholder. Furthermore it's not just about the on-track action but the whole package, the whole experience that is being served on plate.

Probably not actually, if some are talking about races and others are worried about their packages........

[Deleted]

Mmh, there does come a point when it's obvious one's comments are not being wanted around as everything argumented is responded by calling it 'irritating' or 'moaning' or 'dissapointing', so better to shut mouth and let you keep talking about the awesome racing at the Red Bull Ring and other rounds yourselves. Right? Right

[Maelochs]

Actually, Chiana, people are trying to persuade you to adopt a different point of view--one in which you cna actually enjoy things.

You are trying to persuade us that the things we enjoy, really suck, and aren't at all enjoyable.

We are trying to get you to enjoy. Is that such a bad thing?

Where I'm from: screw everyone else anyway, because I only have a short time to live and I am damn well going to enjoy whatever I can.

And I enjoyed Saturday's race. Was it all I have ever wished for? Hell, no. Was it one of the best things going on at that time. IMO, Yes. So, I enjoyed it. Sounds like a good plan For me. You do what you want.

"Mommy, why is daddy peeing in his own Wheaties?" "He's a purist, dear, just ignore it."

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Actually, Chiana, people are trying to persuade you to adopt a different point of view--one in which you cna actually enjoy things.

You are trying to persuade us that the things we enjoy, really suck, and aren't at all enjoyable.

We are trying to get you to enjoy. Is that such a bad thing?

Where I'm from: screw everyone else anyway, because I only have a short time to live and I am damn well going to enjoy whatever I can.

And I enjoyed Saturday's race. Was it all I have ever wished for? Hell, no. Was it one of the best things going on at that time. IMO, Yes. So, I enjoyed it. Sounds like a good plan For me. You do what you want.

"Mommy, why is daddy peeing in his own Wheaties?" "He's a purist, dear, just ignore it."

The hypocrisy!

But yes, I enjoyed the race too. Even though it was way too early in the morning here in EST.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Actually, Chiana, people are trying to persuade you to adopt a different point of view--one in which you cna actually enjoy things.

You are trying to persuade us that the things we enjoy, really suck, and aren't at all enjoyable.

We are trying to get you to enjoy. Is that such a bad thing?

Where I'm from: screw everyone else anyway, because I only have a short time to live and I am damn well going to enjoy whatever I can.

And I enjoyed Saturday's race. Was it all I have ever wished for? Hell, no. Was it one of the best things going on at that time. IMO, Yes. So, I enjoyed it. Sounds like a good plan For me. You do what you want.

"Mommy, why is daddy peeing in his own Wheaties?" "He's a purist, dear, just ignore it."

Oh lord!

[isynge]

Watched the Motors highlights last night, and thought it was a genuinely interesting race with, as Bella said, a lot of clean close action and cars that look exciting.

Going to chalk that one up as highly enjoyable, once again proving that LMP2 is almost impossible to call in terms of spotting an obvious winner.

[Aysedasi]

At the risk of causing offence (but then I'm probably not all that bothered), Maelochs, you put into words exactly what I was thinking, but far better than I could have.

No-one wants any member to be hounded out for their views Chiana, but there comes a limit to the amount of negativity those who do actually enjoy what they're seeing and commenting about can take. Surely there must be at least some beer at the bottom of the glass - occasionally.....

On with the show.

[Deleted]

Ha ha.

As for the beer at the bottom of the glass - yes there actually is some. If you actually take a look at one of my previous messages I did mention ELMS is actually the ACO influenced series I have least nitpicky problems with as overall product. Calendar is good for all intents and purposes, there is not some weird politics war going on in the background, the atmosphere is nice -pretty much what's it always been- and the purely racing wise it can be quite entertaining (though then again can SRO Sprint Series and Porsche Supercup and Nordic Formula Renault 2.0 and USCC LMPC be). It is alright, not nearly as good as pre-2012, but alright. What I've been trying to say here is that for me it just doesn't feel the same when the stakes aren't as high as they used to be in the series. You know, tier two all-privateer proto class at the front with lineups that are by their very nature not intended to be top level, and the two GT classes (of which I'm not big fan anyway) with the same intentions. When someone wins the race it doesn't feel as important as it's all been downgraded and dumbed down on purpose. And therefore it's not as interesting for me, however 'exciting' it might be on track..

Surely someone can see my point.

[Dimension]

I can see your point, and I also sense that you cannot really tell chiana to gtfo while maintaining that others should respect their negative opinions on the subject of TUSC for instance. Not that I'm accusing anyone in particular here.

However, I think, Chiana, that we probably would not have an ELMS at this point if they hadn't switched to Pro-Am. And I'm kind of into the mindset that I'd rather have pro-am racind that is, at the face of it, pretty darn good, than no racing at all.

Of course you'll probably disagree with me on that point, but I'm open of the opinion that pure open-budget competition is dead these days, killed by a corporate mindset that is more than willing to escalate costs to the point it kills the sport.