[ELMS] Should privateer LMP1s be reallowed in the Euro Series?

[carbsmith]

IMSA GTP was largely supported by C1 cars and went down the tubes as they stopped being effective. They were practically identical barring some minor restrictions to screw over the 956 and the equivalency format.

Not sure where the idea that PSR saved Le Mans in the 90s comes from. They couldn't save themselves for one, and the only cars built for WSC to ever run at Le Mans were the 333SP, WSC95, Courage C41, and R&S Mk.III. Of those the Ferrari was seen in extremely limited numbers prior to 1998, the Mk.III wasn't at all, and the WSC95 and C41 were non-existent and nearly invisible in the US respectively. The backbone of mid-late 90s Le Mans was GTs.

Practically speaking, WEC has a freight (and vanity) limit of 32 full time cars. Currently there is 8 cars entered for the entire season in P1H, already making 1/4 of the 4 class field. With 3 cars already in P1L, just how many more P1s do you think can even be allowed entry in the class at all right now? You would need every P1L team to be running the same car and to eject some lower class cars to make a viable customer market for even one builder.

Look at P2 at Le Mans. It's huge. Is P2 huge in WEC? No. Actually last year it was a bit pathetic. To have enough teams around for that big ~20 car class in the 24 hour they have to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is basically ELMS. It's a cheaper series to run, it's an easier series to enter, and it sells cars. P1L there is a much better bet than hoping you will get people to build their own privateer cars for one race a year.

[Deleted]

^Actually the figure's been upped to 35.

Anyway, the following line has been popping up constantly on the ELMS website lately among numerous press releases consisting of drivers and team "moving up"

The European Le Mans Series has long been recognised as important in the development in the careers of teams and drivers wishing to compete at the top of endurance racing, either in the World Endurance Championship or at the 24 Heures du Mans.

Add to that the phrase ACO likes to move around continuously, "the pyramid of endurance", and I start to wonder if ACO doesn't want LMP1 back to ELMS (in addition to the P2 catering) because they don't think there is anything more glorious for P1 to be in than the world championship? If the WEC is the supposed 'be all and end of all', and ELMS & AsLMS are merely stepping stones producing people into it like GP2/GP3/FR3.5, maybe they think that P1 privateers won't want to 'downgrade' themselves? Perhaps they now think 'since they got all this expensive machinery, they sure as hell belong to the world series and not regional one'

This is even more true with the ever dead Asian Le Mans, but it's not the best strategy to downplay the importance of the regional series and try to cannibalize them. The ACO should attempt to improve the PR value of these series by having their own values & prestige & history brought up. Not always trying to turn it around like they're halfway stops to something else - when you actually look at the people in your series it's not even true. And by reintroducing P1 back you could bring up life of it's own back to ELMS and revitalize it a bit. Right now, by having literally everything from team line ups to cars and rules in full second division/grade mode, you have in your hands lower level feeder series instead of series worth of it's own glory. This is how I see it.

[BrentJackson]

I know why people are doing it, but everyone here is missing the biggest single issue that P1s in a regional series has: cost. If you allow P1s, you know one team or two will figure out how to afford it, and they'll destroy the competition so totally and completely that the LMP2 car count will collapse, which will immediately put the stated goal of improving the economics of LMP2 cars by specing out the class in jeopardy. The economics of it don't work (nobody in ELMS is gonna like having their cost go up 3x at least for the same trophy and similar exposure) and they will all know that the only reason it happened is because the ACO and FIA neutered the category to benefit their chosen chassis builders. If having the P1s back could improve the ELMS' economics, it would work, but they don't, so it doesn't. The only way to fix the problems in that class is to not use the truly moronic, lazy drivel that is the new P2 rulebook. The ACO made the conscious decision to make privateer racers into (at-best) second-class citizens, and nothing is going to change that not short of a huge movement out of teams abandoning LMPs for GT cars. If you guys all want LMPs to have a greater window for development and more dedicated privateer racers involve, pray for the Blancpain and IMSA guys to get it right to such a degree that the ACO grids crumble and the ACO and FIA are forced to admit defeat on their dumb rulebook.

[chernaudi]

When one considers that the Oreca 05 and OAK Ligier LMP2 cars were derived from LMP1 designs (the Ligier was based off of OAK's stillborn LMP1 project and the Oreca 05 is a LMP2 spec version of the Rebellion R-One essentially), it can be said that one can afford a non-hybrid LMP1 car--there's almost no way that Oreca and Onroak are making a profit off selling those cars at a price cap, but at the same time, I can't say that they'd cost insanely much more if sold as an LMP1 car.

Where things would get screwed there is if, one, the likes or Oreca or Onroak price gouge to make a profit margin buffer for special orders.

Scenario two of what would screw up the price point is if "factory" teams sell non-hybrid LMP1s. I'll bet that both points cover why the HPD LMP1 cars were so expensive--lack of a market, the need for a profit margin, and that HPD were making initial losses on the sales of their LMP2 spec cars.

Also, HPD were a "factory-backed" car maker, so they probably also charged a premium on top of that. I could only imagine what Audi, Toyota or Porsche would charge for a non-hybrid spec version of their cars. And I'd bet that someone would by them if there was a place to race them.

But then we get to the main reason why none of them are committed to such a thing: who would they sell them to, and where would they race. In short, there's no market, and no incentive for them to do such a project. And the same business case can be made for Oreca and Onroak, among others.

[BrentJackson]

Agreed 100% Chernaudi. The privateer market for LMPs was in the more open LMP2 class, but the ACO has just busted that idea one in the chops, and with it they probably have done in a bunch of the interest in LMPs in general.

I would say that I hope the ACO learns from this, but they have sufficient hubris that they don't seem to learn from history....

[chernaudi]

The ACO also have the 24 Hours of Le Mans, the one sportscar race that's always been able to stand on it's own without need of being propped up by a championship; in fact, for the WEC, the opposite can be argued.

And the fact the the guys who work for the WEC who are in the public eye of the series work for the ACO, does make me wonder how involved the FIA is outside of promotion and logistics? Are members of the FIA directly involved in the day to day operation of the series, or does the FIA just rubber stamp whatever the ACO wants?

[TF110]

Manufacturers want more than just one race to showcase their cars. The wec aint perfect, but its definitely needed. Private teams havent won LM for nearly 2 decades. But they do stand to gain with wec exposure. LM alone isnt sufficient. Itd actually be worse because theyd get even less coverage than now. Once Rebellion returns it should be a good battle. One more private team in p1 makes it a 3 horse race. Thats all there is in GTE atm.

[isynge]

In favour of this one.

Can see why they were pulled in the first place, but the economy is now so much more buoyant than it was and having the additional place to run them makes the whole LMP1 prospect more realistic for privateer outfits.

I can see some detail arguments needing to be made about whether it should be pro-am and that sort of thing, but if you're an ambitious runner then it offers some real options, especially if the proposal for restricting numbers of LMP2 manufacturers comes to pass.

[ModelT]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

When one considers that the Oreca 05 and OAK Ligier LMP2 cars were derived from LMP1 designs (the Ligier was based off of OAK's stillborn LMP1 project and the Oreca 05 is a LMP2 spec version of the Rebellion R-One essentially), it can be said that one can afford a non-hybrid LMP1 car--there's almost no way that Oreca and Onroak are making a profit off selling those cars at a price cap, but at the same time, I can't say that they'd cost insanely much more if sold as an LMP1 car.

Where things would get screwed there is if, one, the likes or Oreca or Onroak price gouge to make a profit margin buffer for special orders.

Scenario two of what would screw up the price point is if "factory" teams sell non-hybrid LMP1s. I'll bet that both points cover why the HPD LMP1 cars were so expensive--lack of a market, the need for a profit margin, and that HPD were making initial losses on the sales of their LMP2 spec cars.

Also, HPD were a "factory-backed" car maker, so they probably also charged a premium on top of that. I could only imagine what Audi, Toyota or Porsche would charge for a non-hybrid spec version of their cars. And I'd bet that someone would by them if there was a place to race them.

But then we get to the main reason why none of them are committed to such a thing: who would they sell them to, and where would they race. In short, there's no market, and no incentive for them to do such a project. And the same business case can be made for Oreca and Onroak, among others.

An interesting viewpoint and one I would think both Oreca & Oak would be interested in building a chassis for if there was a place to race other than the WEC.

Who knows, perhaps there are already people talking to either or both about doing a P1 version even for the WEC? I believe both the P2 coupe cars would be eligible more or less as they are for P1, or am I wrong?

We can see the Oreca in P1 as the Rebellion, doesn't take much imagination to see an Oak in P1 either, could be interesting, but I suppose it would depend on what engine?

[The Badger]

I think one of the reasons we are seeing the ELMS grow is the fact that there are no P1 .

I also feel that P1 is fine where it is . Who wants to see 2 or 3 P1 , when we can have a full battle in P2 . I would be against seeing P1 in ELMS again .... unless rules change . Privateers cant afford it .

The only issue i have with P2 is the lack of differant engine supplys ... its like formula Nissan ... and of course the proposed limit on chassis constructors .

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I think one of the reasons we are seeing the ELMS grow is the fact that there are no P1 .

I also feel that P1 is fine where it is . Who wants to see 2 or 3 P1 , when we can have a full battle in P2 . I would be against seeing P1 in ELMS again .... unless rules change . Privateers cant afford it .

The only issue i have with P2 is the lack of differant engine supplys ... its like formula Nissan ... and of course the proposed limit on chassis constructors .

What 'ELMS growth'?

[tux]

I think the days of Privateer P1s has gone for the moment.

[Bob Baldwin]

Tain't likely to be coming back either !!

[Ephaeton]

ACO should build half a dozen Perrinn tubs and use them for invites of (young) formula drivers to ELMS races to get those addicted as well

[BTCC 318d]

Personally, I can't see anything but downside for putting LMP1 into ELMS.

The 4 class system works, and works well. If you put LMP1 into ELMS, then you stop the P2 teams fighting for overall victory - and therefore rob them of airtime for their sponsors. This can do nothing but put P2 at risk, and it's currently a healthy, successful category.

At the moment, you have ELMS sitting as a great feeder series for the WEC. Often, people cite the reason for racing in ELMS to be budget vs WEC - surely a P1 entry would cost a lot more than P2, and for what benefit? If people had the extra money they can race in the WEC instead.

Having Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze classes is a brilliant setup, especially with the split between GT and proto. Anyone wanting to step up can then either go up a category, or chance their arm on the world stage as they see fit.

Elms Wec
Plat P2 P1
Gold P3 P2
Silver GTE GTE Pro
bronze GT3 GTE Am

Adding a 5th category to either doesn't work IMO - the individual grids would be too small, making the competition as futile as the current 3 car entry in P1 WEC - people want to compete, not turn up and beat just 3/4 other cars - what's the point of winning with no competition?

Too many categories risks death of one of them by natural selection. If the grids are small, interest falls. If the class gets no airtime, sponsors leave and budgets go - leading to smaller grids and irrelevance. The only upside of P1 would be more variety - but the current P1 entries to the WEC, and the DW in TUSCC show you that having well sorted cars to a rulebook is a far better show for the viewer than watching unique cars fail to finish a race.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by BTCC 318d

Personally, I can't see anything but downside for putting LMP1 into ELMS.

The 4 class system works, and works well. If you put LMP1 into ELMS, then you stop the P2 teams fighting for overall victory - and therefore rob them of airtime for their sponsors. This can do nothing but put P2 at risk, and it's currently a healthy, successful category.

At the moment, you have ELMS sitting as a great feeder series for the WEC. Often, people cite the reason for racing in ELMS to be budget vs WEC - surely a P1 entry would cost a lot more than P2, and for what benefit? If people had the extra money they can race in the WEC instead.

Having Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze classes is a brilliant setup, especially with the split between GT and proto. Anyone wanting to step up can then either go up a category, or chance their arm on the world stage as they see fit.

Elms Wec
Plat P2 P1
Gold P3 P2
Silver GTE GTE Pro
bronze GT3 GTE Am

Adding a 5th category to either doesn't work IMO - the individual grids would be too small, making the competition as futile as the current 3 car entry in P1 WEC - people want to compete, not turn up and beat just 3/4 other cars - what's the point of winning with no competition?

Too many categories risks death of one of them by natural selection. If the grids are small, interest falls. If the class gets no airtime, sponsors leave and budgets go - leading to smaller grids and irrelevance. The only upside of P1 would be more variety - but the current P1 entries to the WEC, and the DW in TUSCC show you that having well sorted cars to a rulebook is a far better show for the viewer than watching unique cars fail to finish a race.

The arguments seem to be going in circles now, and we have gone over this multiple times already, but such matters as "airtime" and "interest" are irrelevant when it comes to this series. This is not a league geared for audiences at all, thus having (at least initially small) lead category would do no harm to how the series is being judged from outside.

I admit it, I am mainly thinking about the benefits for the future of LMP1 here, not the series, but apart from maybe couple of P2 withdraws (which under the 2017-spec rules would equal spec Oreca / Oak cars surely) I REALLY cannot see the negative sides that have been brought up. And even that possibly decreased P2 interest, we have no actual proof of that, as stated before the figures have actually been around the same since axing P1. They would still be part of the series and be class champions just as before. It's now only the 4th season that the P2s have been allowed to compete as something else than the secondary category, so telling them they're being downscaled back surely wouldn't kill backbones. Most of them are still there because of Le Mans entry hunt anyway.

'If people had the extra money the could race at the WEC instead' - but they wouldn't, not as P1 privateers, because it's bit of a pointless death trap currently isn't it?

Finally, I don't understand your driver ratings point?

[Damian Baldi]

For sure P1 cars are expensive, but I don't know how much more expensive than a P2. One thing I had read several times from P1/P2 drivers/owners in WEC, is that the schedule is too big for them. That makes things more expensive. If they run at Europe it could be cheaper than a WEC season.

I think P1 privateers could be a good option for ELMS and IMSA. With privateers P1 at IMSA they could run the same P2 class as in Europe instead to change it as they desire these days.

P1 privateers from ELMS and IMSA could meet for some races, Daytona, Sebring, Le Mans.