Brands Hatch Toca Tour: 25/26 August 2002

[pinki]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Cos the people in charge are inept?

I couldn't possibly comment

[Steve Tarrant]

But I will!!!!!!

I was listening, as an off duty marshal, on my scanner yesterday on the race control frequency, and the safety car was not under the control of the BARC officials running the meeting. Why? Because each class of the touring package has it's own special class CoC who's has his own race radio frequency, and therefore controls his own aspects of the running of the race (yes, with input via race control, but generally they do their own thing from the gantry, as they think they can respond quickly when acting alone).

BUT also it is the responsibility of the driver joining the circuit to do so in a safe manner, as the driver is controlling the vehicle, not anyone in race control. Therefore any blame must lay between the specialist Clerk and the driver for the cock-ups that occurred.

But I do agree with the way they neutralised the race first, sorted the problem (car removal), then sorted track order when marshals were off circuit. Would you want to be removing a car trackside when the cars are told to pass and therefore are at racing pace, trying to catch up with the back of the pack? I know I wouldn't, and am glad it was done the way it was. One accident is one too many when it involves a volunteer.

Other than that, it was great to meet the various people from the group that I did over the weekend. Hope to see you all soon.


Steve Tarrant

[Stephen Green]

I agree Steve. Sort out the accident and then get the cars in order once the guys are clear of the track. As for the safety car, I think it was handled badly in the aspect of when and how it was deployed.

Sorry to have missed you (once again) and hope to catch up with you soon.

[Steve Tarrant]

Yes, I wanted to see the red trainers for myself!!!!!! Believe you were playing on post 6 whilst I was enjoying Fosters in the Brabham suite! Hard life, isn't it????

And Pinki, aren't you yet licenced to watch FFords in the rain, or will Saara have to watch you melt?????? :-))

Craig, I believe you were in the pits whilst I was enjoying B&Q hospitality, hopefully we'll mett up next year (I'll be in the States when the Donington round is on).

Cheers


Steve

[Stephen Green]

Fosters! You're welcome to that

Pinki doesn't 'do' rain any more. He's getting too long in the tooth for wet weather racing

[Steve Tarrant]

When it's free and supplied by someone else, you don't quibble too much.

And as Pinki's hat looks too new stiil, it's about time he got wet!

[Craig]

Sorry to have missed you Steve - Sylvia told me you'd been asking after me but that was at the end of the day sadly! I have your card now and I'll ensure you get the results from Donington when you're enjoying the States - let's hope they're better than of late, eh ?!

Well I din't expect that frank an answer Stephen! The safety car was everything but safe when it pulled in front of that pack and I think we were exceptionally lucky not to see a nasty accident. The fact that lights were not on didn't help and I would be interested to know what warning the cars had as they approached pit exit when the safety car suddenly emerged.

I am not making an issue about it but, frankly, I was apalled and was scared for the safety of all concerned. This needs looking into urgently.

Maybe the black/yellow flag could be used in some instances to make a much safer race ? I don't think I've ever seen it used in a TOCA meeting - perhaps the saftey car driver would object as it would prevent him from razzing round on two wheels like a total moron ?

[pinki]

Pinki doesn't mind getting wet now and again, the hat's waterproof you know and the reason I missed the Formula Ford race, well I was invited to a social gathering of the stewards and a couple of drivers who couldn't agree on what constitutes fair and gentlemanly conduct on a race circuit.

For those of you who can't understand that load of waffle, I went to an enquiry for one of the previous races in the day.

[Bodysnatcher]

Steve T, sorry about not trying to find you Sun night - domestic dramas required my return to base ASAP. Try again goodwood revival - post 13/chicane for me.


Safety car debacles (BTW - I think they finally got it right for the FFordies)
Peter Scillitoe should have an opinion on whether the drivers got a warning I'm sure, as he was flagging on 2.
I think our flaggies at 3 were mostly caught out. A kind of half way out SC board as the Audi drew alongside. You see, the board and flags should commence at the start line, and if the start line don't start it off - and the car has no lights on - would a white flag be more technically correct.
It certainly was a close thing re and incident from my viewpoint. Initially it did'nt really click that it was the safety car, simply because the lights were not on, but then my attention is a bit focussed on the braking and turning points for paddpock.

ps - anybody think that he quality of marshalling at TOCA meetings is a bit shambolic. A lot of marshals at Brands seemed to be non-local. Now, that's not too bad a thing for incident/coursies, although I did have right waste of space with me. However, I question the wisdom of what are basically novice Observers on post.
cos Observers unfamiliar with circuit plus coursies unfamiliar with circuit = cockups

And if my observer from the weekend has access to this board, and recognises me, PM please.

[Stephen Green]

Craig, BARC don't recognise the black and yellow flag despite it being an 'official' flag and in the MSA rule books. It's rather like they don't recognise Incident Officers either preferring to call them Assistant Observers.

In my opinion it's about time many things in motor sport were standardised. Safety car regulations, black and yellow flags, cut out switches. The list is quite exhaustive.

As Al said, the startline are supposed to display the safety car board along with a waved yellow flag. The safety car should join the circuit with the orange lights flashing etc etc. Where it joins the track is, I believe, at the discretion of the Clerk of the Course, but I stand to be corrected if I am wrong on that matter.

[pinki]

You think you had problems Ali, I had to put up with Steve Stares and Vince yesterday Roger has gone up in my estimations and has my deepest sympathy.

I know Vince and Steve haven't yet mastered the use of a computer so there can be no come-backs and I'm joking by the way, the 'boyz did good' and looked after me yesterday.

[Steve Tarrant]

Craig,

don't worry, I'm not taking anything personal in this. I'm just trying to pass on my knowledge from what I've acquired as both a marshal and a CoC, even if it is at karting (the theories are the same).

Obviously the first warning any racecar gets of the impending safety car is at the finish line and then (at Brands) clockwise at the circuit. So yes, the 1st cars will be doing top speed at the precise moment of seeing the "SC" boards at the start/finishline, and again for that reason the safety car is normally a few posts around the course which gives the cars time to slow down.

I cannot tell you why the car came out as the first car was passing pitlane exit - but from above was equally horrified at the prospect. Luckily he at least did keep tight to the inside and them merged into line after the 3rd car and then neutralised things. Maybe things just happened too quickly to neatly send the car out the normal way? Without access to any of the lines of communication, we can only speculate.

The yellow and black quartered flag has the same meaning at the SC boards, the difference is with the flag the race leader becomes the safety car whereas here an actual car was sent out. So that's why it wouldn't have been used in this instance. I can understand the reluctance of the championship not wanting to use it, as drivers usually don't react properly to seeing it (that's a generalisation, I know there are some good drivers who act correctly when placed in this situation with the flag), especially the "paid professional drivers" who are look to take advantage of any loophole or tactic. Therefore a neutral control car is generally considered the best way to control these kind of situations.


Steve

[Stephen Green]

Good point Steve, but don't you think that if they did use the black and yellow flag it could be spoken about and the drivers told what is expected of them at the drivers briefing? Sometimes the cars 'weaving' behind the safety car to keep tyres warm and temperatures up can be just as dangerous.

To me what was silly this weekend was the four different sets of safety car regulations for the one meeting. Surely they could at least standardise that?

[Craig]

Blimey. What a can of worms.

When I mentioned the black/yellow I was thinking of this in place of the safety car for more minor incidents. This would surely allow racing to go green again in a more timely manner which would surely be more appealing all round ?

And talking of people making the most of the situation and trying to gain an advantage - what are the feelings of those few cars that slipped past the safety car in the confusion it caused and who continued to speed round at what appeared to be full racing speed until they caught up with the back of the train of cars ? Surely this is something that should be frowned upon ?

Or could all of this be avoided by simply being more consistent with rules and everyone knowing what is going to happen ? If the safety car had been deployed via the paddock exit on Cooper Straight then there would be none of this discussion...

[redshoes]

Point taken on letting cars through early. Although I would have though drivers would be sensible enough to realise where the incident was and not go hell-for-leather at that point trying to catch up. and before anyone says it, yes I know

Of course the obvious answer would be to get the SC out in time. Had to feel sorry for Reid who went side-by-side with the SC through Paddock not knowing if he should brake, overtake or crash into the gravel.

Stephen, did wander up to Druids during qualifying and briefly during the race but didn't see you. Maybe didn't go far enough round. Next time perhaps. BTW logos were on Annie T's car as well this week.

Pinki, would the 'previous race' you mentioned be something involving little French cars? Walked past you after the race and you seemed very busy with the paperwork.

[Dave Brand]

At recent meetings at Oulton the start point for the safety car boards has been Lodge out. There are six flag points between Lodge out & the pit lane exit - enough for even F3 drivers to have a chance of seeing at least one & maybe even slowing down........

[chrisgr31]

Well I was at Brands at the weekend, and as a mere spectator (ie not a marshall on duty or not) I was staggered when the safety car came out at exactly the same time as leaders went past. I just assumed someone had fouled up the timing. I seem to recall the commentators had questioned whether the safety car would be needed, and I assume there are certain locations on the circuit were a stranded car would guarantee a safety car period.

It was interesting to note that for the Formula Fords (well I think it was for them) the Safety Car came out from the back entrance to the pits.

Anyway I thought it was a good days racing with some good marshalling, however could swear blind there were less races than usual at a TOCA meet.

[Stephen Green]

There were certainly too many long gaps between races which almost ended up with the F Fords banging against the curfew time of 18.30!

Red's I was on post 6 (exit to Druids) all weekend so sorry to have missed meeting you once again.

Reference the Safety Car. In my humble opinion there should be a safety car deployment during the practice sessions rather like they do in F1 these days. That would allow both the race drivers and the safety car teams some practice at deploying the SC at the right time and the right place. In the end it comes down to the instructions given by race control and they quite obviously weren't up to the job on the day.

[Alan Green]

Reference the safety car, due to a technical error (someone cut & pasted but didn't edit the paragraph), our instructions at Croft said that the safety car would enter the circuit at one of the Brands corners! Much p*sstaking at marshals briefing. Mind you it would probably have been safer reading about what happened last weekend...can't wait for the ITV coverage (the racing sounded good listening over the internet as well - top marks MG).

TOCA radios, i believe, use one channel to race control from incident/observers, and another channel between control and pit lane, clerks, startline, safety car, doctors car, rescue etc. I'm pretty sure this was the case last year (I had pit exit at Croft and had pit lane radio, but no incident radio) so I imagine it'll be the same this year.

Still, all down to Donington now - championship finale, last race of the weekend, very good indeed!

Alan.

[Stephen Green]

Alan, Observers and IO's don't have radios at Brands. It's still what is laughingly called a telephone system. Two tin cans and a bit of string would be better!!!

[pinki]

Originally posted by redshoes
Pinki, would the 'previous race' you mentioned be something involving little French cars? Walked past you after the race and you seemed very busy with the paperwork.

Yes, 'twas the Clio's that kept my fingers busy. When you say you walked past, were you trackside ???

[wiggles]

Hehe. The Clios do give some good racing, a lot of jostling for position but they do seem to treat it as more of a stock-car race!