Race Marshal Manning Levels

[Mark Noble]

In ten years regularly marshalling Oulton, as opposed to one fun day, I have never known flaggies to not be present at the on post briefing.

It is everyone's responsibility to ensure they are present at that briefing and a part of it.

As for the poor flagging, we all make mistakes at times and there are trainees doing their first/second day of a particular duty. If you had been at the briefing there may have been some advice/pointers knocking about

[ascarracinguk]

Ditto mark....personally I think my flagging is pretty good....and I always attend briefings.....I'm sure Stuarts expertise will be most welcome at next years training day where he can show us how it's done!?

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by Mark Noble

as opposed to one fun day,

the "Fun" part of this meant...... The whole day, as normal @ Oulton, was Fun!!

Originally Posted by Mark Noble

It is everyone's responsibility to ensure they are present at that briefing and a part of it.

I was there, on post, but not invited!!

Originally Posted by Mark Noble

As for the poor flagging, we all make mistakes at times and there are trainees doing their first/second day of a particular duty.

very true but does not explain the same mistakes being made more than once. Worse than that, Driver and Marshals trackside, and on the exit of a fast corner, not behind barriers or even gravel trap, with only a Single Waved Yellow as protection.
Sorry, not good enough.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I'm sure Stuarts expertise will be most welcome at next years training day where he can show us how it's done!?

Why not? The other Flaggie on my post was going for his "Blue Upgrade", whatever that is. He got his signature ok but was still asking me "Why" and "When" about some flagging. He learned stuff but not from the I/O (never there) or the Observer (too busy writing). Oh, must have been me then!!

I attended the excellent training day earlier this year, not been able to do Oulton until that day but.... at least I could turn the lights on!!

Grading???? waste of time!! STILL

[Slipstick]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

Why not? The other Flaggie on my post was going for his "Blue Upgrade", whatever that is. He got his signature ok but was still asking me "Why" and "When" about some flagging. He learned stuff but not from the I/O (never there) or the Observer (too busy writing). Oh, must have been me then!!

Of course he may have been asking "Why on earth did you do that ?" and "Are you sure that's when that flag should be out" ?

Even in the relatively short time I've been playing with flags I have learned that the "rules" aren't clear cut and there are many judgement calls needed. The fact that your judgement and the other guys aren't the same doesn't necessarily mean that it's him that's wrong .

Steve

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

...I was there, on post, but not invited!

Please explain what you mean by 'invited'. I have no recollection of ever receiving a guilt-edged invitation to attend a briefing, even if I'm the one giving it. Am I missing out on something?

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Please explain what you mean by 'invited'. I have no recollection of ever receiving a guilt-edged invitation to attend a briefing, even if I'm the one giving it. Am I missing out on something?

"Invited" means that the Observer/Post Chief/Corner Captain/Boss of post........... whatever title you care to use, actually makes sure that ALL members of the "Post" are there, upright, and part of the briefing!

failure to ensure that is a fault.

ALL members of a post should attend and it is up to the One in Charge to ensure so. (they have the Sign-on sheet)

sorry to sound so negative but............

I was raised, in the Marshalling World, to expect a FULL briefing from both the Observer and the Incident Officer.
anything less is not safe and should not be acceptable to all members of the post.

Maybe things have changed?

btw, NO, I did not raise the issue at the time as I was a 'New' returnee to Oulton and did not want to rock-the-boat.

but trust me, I have made the Powers-that-be aware of my concerns and will raise it should it happen again.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I have no recollection of ever receiving a guilt-edged invitation to attend a briefing, even if I'm the one giving it. Am I missing out on something?

Probably Yes then. You should never miss-out a briefing, whether invited or not!

[Slipstick]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

"Invited" means that the Observer/Post Chief/Corner Captain/Boss of post........... whatever title you care to use, actually makes sure that ALL members of the "Post" are there, upright, and part of the briefing!

failure to ensure that is a fault.

So you didn't so much want an invitation as for someone to check that you were where you were supposed to be ? Anyway I thought you said that you were on post, so how did you manage to avoid hearing the briefing ?

I've always been included in briefings but that's because after signing on, even if I'm working an outlying flag point, I wait around for the briefing. I regard that as my responsibility not anyone else's. OTOH I'm never surprised or upset to find that the IO's briefing tends to concentrate mainly on the track marshals. And if the PC doesn't have much specific to say about flagging I tend to think of that as flattering if anything....she/he perhaps thinks I know what I'm doing .

Steve

[Mark Noble]

Stuart,

I'm glad you say visiting Oulton is fun - it should be.

Briefing - As you rightly say, 'you should never miss a briefing, whether invited or not'. My advice would to be pro-active and ensure my attendance.

Concerns about standards - I feel that speaking with the guys on post, and passing on your experience and advice, would be the most productive thing to do. A public forum is not the place to be seen to be criticising the work of others.

The 'blue upgrade' is upgrade to flag. I would welcome your colleague's thirst for knowledge and further improvement. I still ask plenty of questions as there are many folks out there who have been doing this longer than me. When we stop showing an interest and questioning certain things, it's time to give up!

[numbersix]

OK, Stuart. Thank you for your less than complimentary PM, or not, as the case my be.

My view is that everyone on post should attend the briefings (I/0 + PC at Oulton) but it is the duty and personal responsibility of all marshals concerned to do so.

If, for some reason, a marshal cannot make the briefing (e.g. late turn up, toilet, whatever) then it is the responsibility of that marshal to advise the PC that they missed the briefing and request an update. If on flag duty, they should be able to pass a message via the nearest incident marshal. The PC can then come across at some point.

When I am on flag duty I regard it as important to talk to the PC, before of after the briefing, with regard to the situation concerning things like start procedures, rolling starts, safety car availability, etc. I don't require an invitation, roll-call or telegram to do so - it is my responsibility to acquire this information.

I do not regard it as the duty of the PC to act as sheep herder, although I would most certainly focus on new or inexperienced marshals who might not know the ropes.

When acting as PC I tend to start my briefing with the flag marshals, giving them relevant information and also seeing if they are on their own and/or level of expertise and offering advice accordingly.

You mentioned this, "He learned stuff but not from the I/O (never there) or the Observer (too busy writing). Oh, must have been me then!!"

Good. I am glad when an experienced marshal acts as a mentor to a less-experienced marshal. It's part of the job. Teamwork.

[Dave Brand]

Now this thread has cooled down a little, I'll add a few comments.

Firstly, on briefings. Used to be that it was the IO's briefing & the flaggies just wandered off & did whatever flaggies do. Now it's (or it should be!) a combined IO/Post Chief briefing covering everything & everybody on post. At Oulton we're lucky that at most meetings we get an excellent set of briefing notes; as far as I'm concerned these are not the exclusive property of the Post Chief & are available for anyone to read all through the day.

I'm not very happy discussing specific cases, but in the case quoted where a flaggy "learned stuff but not from the I/O (never there) or the Observer (too busy writing)."; I'm not an Examining Post Chief, so I don't speak with any authority on such matters, but I would think that during an assessment the XPC would stand back & let him get on with - he's supposed to be demonstrating that he has the knowledge & ability to perform at the grade he's being assessed for. As for the IO, his responsibility is the incident team - many IO's, myself included, have little or no real flagging experience (or in my case ability!). Of course, if the flaggy is making mistakes which affect safety then,assessment or not, intervention is justified. Training is not just the responsibilty of the PC or IO - we all have a role to play in helping our less experienced colleagues become better-informed, more confident marshals.

[Wet marshal]

Mallory Park was good for "manning levels" yesterday!

[Stuart Hill]

just came across this thread....... mmmmmmmmmmm
Boy did we have some discussions!!! ;-)

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are nowadays?

Are you actually allowed to Marshal?
Do on-post briefings actually take place?
Are Flaggies still sometimes thought of as "them what Flag"?

just thought I'd ask. ;-)

[SouthportFC Fan]

Someone is out there !!!

Trying to include flag marshals if they are 'very remote' from the incident marshals team can be difficult, or time consuming to get them to join in at some posts (Hanger 2 Silverstone ?), but then they should be coming to join the briefing also. Now that, for some meetings/clubs, the Post Chief/Flag Marshal role seems to have been combined, it means that, sometimes, when the 'combined role' is being done by a 'trainee' flag marshal on their own, the last thing on their mind may well be that they don't want to have to deal with a briefing also.

I always make contact with my 'local' Post Chief/Flag Marshal and get them involved. There are posts where this is easy, others where it's not. It's just a case of being flexible and doing all aspects of the briefing myself if necessary.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by SouthportFC Fan

Now that, for some meetings/clubs, the Post Chief/Flag Marshal role seems to have been combined.

I'm never a Post Chief. Sometimes I'm a flag marshal with a radio, but I'm not in charge of anything other than the flags. Some people might suggest that's a step too far on it's own.

[deley]

Originally Posted by SouthportFC Fan

......Now that, for some meetings/clubs, the Post Chief/Flag Marshal role seems to have been combined, .........

I suspect that this is the case only at one circuit in particular.

At most circuits/meetings you may find a Flag Marshal being asked to act as a post chief but they will usually then not be actually flagging with that role being undertaken by others.

Dave

[Greem]

Originally Posted by deley

I suspect that this is the case only at one circuit in particular.

At most circuits/meetings you may find a Flag Marshal being asked to act as a post chief but they will usually then not be actually flagging with that role being undertaken by others.

Dave

I can think of one circuit where Post Chief/Flag Marshal/Incident Officer/Incident Team and Kettle-putter-onner are sometimes combined into a single person at numerous posts. At least that's been my experience over the years, but I won't be having that this year as no meetings there fall on weekends I'm available.

Going back to the holy-moly-batman-thread-resurrection questions:

Speaking of the clubs and circuits I've volunteered for/at over the last 3 or 4 years:

Yes, we're "allowed to marshal". Some clerks are less keen on complex interventions, but we're still getting out trackside under yellows and dealing with things.

Yes, there are still on-post briefings. I've been on the receiving end of some usually excellent ones, and some unfortunate people have had them from me.

There is still an undercurrent that "flagging is hard (and boring)", perpetuated by persons unknown. I've had people on taster days come on post in the afternoon having spent time with someone in the morning who's put the fear into them before they've even tried; however I'm proud to say that I've got them all to give it a go and a number of people have gone on to sign up for future events and prefer to flag
Don't get me wrong; marshalling at a decent standard in any discipline is "hard": it's a huge commitment, and for some people the idea of being in a fixed position for the weekend where you might not see another marshal for several hours is an awful or terrifying one. For others, the idea of being in a gravel trap with drivers "lifting" by 0.1s in that sector is just as terrifying.
Different strokes for different folks. That's why we're not all fighting each other to do the pit lane buzzer at sign on!

[Lancsbreaker]

Although I've done rally-marshalling over very many years, the only race marshalling I've done was a training day at Oulton and one day at Rockingham as part of my "get rid of the black cross" signatures, I keep thinking that I should do some more as I'm only doing about 4 races this year. I know that I would need to jump through various MSA hoops of course

This feeling was reinforced this weekend at Anglesey when many of the posts seemed to be single manned - leading to situations such as I witnessed where after a competitor stopped just off-track the marshal who was yellow-flagging had tp pause this to get down to the car to check the driver was OK and get him away from the car........

It must have been a very long weekend for the marshals as the VW fun cup was scheduled to run on until after 8pm on the Saturday...at least the Sunday finish should have been well before 5pm.