[BTCC] BTCC 2018 - Knockhill - Rounds 22, 23, 24

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

If it's outside a race meeting then championship regs are irrelevant.

Which is what I was saying.

The regulation for ballast applies to sessions during a race meeting, and states that a driver can take over a car registered to another driver (subject to 45kg ballast penalty). It doesn't have to be a substitute, and is not bringing in a replacement car.

Aside from assertions here, I am still seeing nothing in the regulations preventing Turkington from switching chassis during a meeting if his own is damaged, providing that the other car was already part of the meeting.

[btccbloke]

Not sure where this idea comes from.
Thinkback to Brands GP last year, Rob said before qualifying he couldn't compete, his car sat in the garage all weekend whilst Turks has issues throughout quali and spent most of it in the pits from what I remember. If it was as simple as strapping him in the sister car they would have used that opportunity I'm sure

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Aside from assertions here, I am still seeing nothing in the regulations preventing Turkington from switching chassis during a meeting if his own is damaged, providing that the other car was already part of the meeting.

give me strength....

so that would mean they would be replacing his car thats been damaged!

no replacement cars are allowed so it doesnt matter if its already taking part in the meeting or sitting back at the workshop. its still a replacement for his own car during the meeting.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

give me strength....

so that would mean they would be replacing his car thats been damaged!

no replacement cars are allowed so it doesnt matter if its already taking part in the meeting or sitting back at the workshop. its still a replacement for his own car during the meeting.

OK - I get what you are saying. A driver already competing, using another car, would be considered a replacement in your interpretation of the rule.

But my question still goes unanswered:

What would constitute a driver taking over another registered car, who is not a substitute?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

OK - I get what you are saying. A driver already competing, using another car, would be considered a replacement in your interpretation of the rule.

But my question still goes unanswered:

What would constitute a driver taking over another registered car, who is not a substitute?

dont understand your question.

during an actual race meeting it cant happen as it would be a replacement, because its not the same car as what he started the race meeting with.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

dont understand your question.

during an actual race meeting it cant happen as it would be a replacement, because its not the same car as what he started the race meeting with.

Ignoring whether it is a replacement or not - the wording of rule 1.11.1.c.iii) is that:

'Any driver, including substitute drivers, who takes-over the registered car of another driver will also take over the success-weight ballast...….'

So my question is - how can a driver take over another car and not be a substitute?

The addition of the parenthetical punctuation in the sentence means that a driver who takes over another driver's car is not necessarily a substitute. So far, no example of how this can be done has been provided.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Ignoring whether it is a replacement or not - the wording of rule 1.11.1.c.iii) is that:

'Any driver, including substitute drivers, who takes-over the registered car of another driver will also take over the success-weight ballast...….'

So my question is - how can a driver take over another car and not be a substitute?

The addition of the parenthetical punctuation in the sentence means that a driver who takes over another driver's car is not necessarily a substitute. So far, no example of how this can be done has been provided.

a substitute is a temporary stand-in for the original driver until he comes back. the original driver might have been sick etc.

[btccbloke]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

a substitute is a temporary stand-in for the original driver until he comes back. the original driver might have been sick etc.

I think hypothetically let's say earlier in the year Jake Hill was looking to join Amd after leaving team hard.
Let's say he was second in the championship, and the move went through, would we expect him to carry 66kg on championship weight, 45kg as a new entry or 0kg as Boardman championship weight, or maybe 111kg championship + substitute weight

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by btccbloke

I think hypothetically let's say earlier in the year Jake Hill was looking to join Amd after leaving team hard.
Let's say he was second in the championship, and the move went through, would we expect him to carry 66kg on championship weight, 45kg as a new entry or 0kg as Boardman championship weight, or maybe 111kg championship + substitute weight

he carries his championship weight in whatever car he drives. so 66kg

[btccbloke]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

he carries his championship weight in whatever car he drives. so 66kg

Yes I think the confusion is
"Any driver, including substitute drivers, who takes-over the registered car of another driver will also take over the success-weight ballast"

I'll need to see the full context as I'd imagine it states championship ballast comes first

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

a substitute is a temporary stand-in for the original driver until he comes back. the original driver might have been sick etc.

I get what a substitute is.
I'm asking - under the rules, what would not be a substitute?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I get what a substitute is.
I'm asking - under the rules, what would not be a substitute?

when its a change of driver for that entry and not just a temporary substitute.

honestly i cant help you anymore if you dont understand the difference between a change of the nominated driver for that entry and a temporary substitute (stand in) driver.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I get what a substitute is.
I'm asking - under the rules, what would not be a substitute?

See my earlier post, with examples

Originally Posted by redshoes

Driver B taking over for driver A for a limited number of races is a substitute - eg Ricky Collard is a substitute for Rob

Driver A leaving and driver B taking over is a replacement - eg Dan Lloyd was a replacement for James Nash

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by btccbloke

Yes I think the confusion is
"Any driver, including substitute drivers, who takes-over the registered car of another driver will also take over the success-weight ballast"

It helps if you read the full line in the regs
"Any driver, including substitute drivers, who takes-over the registered car of another driver will also take over the success-weight ballast (1.11.1.c) of the departing driver up to that time, or 45kg, whichever is the greater."

If the previous driver had more than 45kg of championship ballast the the new driver carries that amount. If the previous driver had less than 45kg then the new driver carries 45kg.

It's really not that difficult.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by Robin Marriott

Nope, definitely not getting confused.

Let’s say the minimum height across the grid is 75mm and the minimum weight is 1300kg

If BMR have been told they need to run an extra 100kg to run at 75mm by can remove weight for a height increase, let’s say 10kg per 10mm for ease of calculation...

If they run at 85mm and at 90kg over the min weight, the weight is easy to measure but how can anyone be sure they’re not running under the new 85mm height their sliding scale would allow?

If they’ve been told they can run higher and lose weight, their minimum height is not as straight forward as everyone else’s.

So... The Scooby specific COG penalty has nothing to do with overall weight of the car. A weight is added to a specific location on the bulkhead which is changed up or down based on ride height. This is to compensate for the extra weight in a specific location that the non-boxer engine'd cars have due to the weight of the cylinder head.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by auroan

So... The Scooby specific COG penalty has nothing to do with overall weight of the car. A weight is added to a specific location on the bulkhead which is changed up or down based on ride height. This is to compensate for the extra weight in a specific location that the non-boxer engine'd cars have due to the weight of the cylinder head.

Alan Gow:

'In very simple terms it's a graph that provides the team with a sliding-scale combination of some weight added to the front bulkhead or an increase in the sprung-mass floor height of the car (but not the front and rear aero ride-heights). Providing it meets the line on the graph then the team can decrease the weight on the bulkhead and increase the floor height, or vice-versa, to suit the balance of their car.'

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Alan Gow:

'In very simple terms it's a graph that provides the team with a sliding-scale combination of some weight added to the front bulkhead or an increase in the sprung-mass floor height of the car (but not the front and rear aero ride-heights). Providing it meets the line on the graph then the team can decrease the weight on the bulkhead and increase the floor height, or vice-versa, to suit the balance of their car.'

so they use the same aero ride height check roller as on all the others cars as they all have the same aero ride height. thats easier then.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

so they use the same aero ride height check roller as on all the others cars as they all have the same aero ride height. thats easier then.

Yes - but I note Gow only refers to front and rear.

Is there anything in the sides not being referred to, and the side(s) being where they failed at Knockhill?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Yes - but I note Gow only refers to front and rear.

Is there anything in the sides not being referred to, and the side(s) being where they failed at Knockhill?

it would include the sides. the cars dont have different measurments around different points of the car as its an overall minimum ride height

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I get what a substitute is.
I'm asking - under the rules, what would not be a substitute?

Ant Whorton-Eales was a substitute driver at AMD.
Glynn Geddie is a replacement driver.

Substitutes are allowed to race at a single meeting if the nominated driver is unavailable. They do not count as driver changes. (So AMD can make another driver change without penalty).

[Alfisti]

Learned something new there. So Shaun can run anybody else for the last two rounds. Or Geddie for Silverstone and AN Other for Brands.

AWE could be back then as his last Mini outing sits on the weekend between Silverstone and Brands. It's not going to be Jake, not a chance for this season.

[btccbloke]

Originally Posted by sceptic

Ant Whorton-Eales was a substitute driver at AMD.
Glynn Geddie is a replacement driver.

Substitutes are allowed to race at a single meeting if the nominated driver is unavailable. They do not count as driver changes. (So AMD can make another driver change without penalty).

both AWE and GG had 45kg penalties

http://www.btcc.net/2018/07/25/amd-whorton-eales/
http://www.btcc.net/2018/08/08/glynn...urance-racing/

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by btccbloke

both AWE and GG had 45kg penalties

http://www.btcc.net/2018/07/25/amd-whorton-eales/
http://www.btcc.net/2018/08/08/glynn...urance-racing/

As per rule 1.11.1.c.iii)