Brabham BT 2

[John Dowson]

Bryan

Thanks very much for your update and the subsequent responses. I'm finding that tracking history is an imperfect science!

Can you clarify when you bought the car (and therefore how the early history fits together)? It is a real shame that the file that Tony Moodie had is no longer with the car.

In the meantime the car now has a refurbished engine, gearbox, calipers and brakes and a new fuel tank. We'll be out in the first Lurani of the season at Hockenheim in mid-April.

John

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

Re-reading the Mike Lawrence book about Ron Tauranac I see that they never bothered too much about type numbers in the early days of MRD. Therefore it would be likely that chassis number FJ-1-63 just meant it was the first chassis Formula Junior built in 1963. If it is a BT2 type chassis instead of a BT6 type chassis, which has apparently been established by Ted Walker, then it seems to be an addition to “our” list of BT2 cars. These start at chassis FJ-2-62 and end at FJ-11-62 (10 cars) plus FJ-1-63 i.e. a total of 11 cars (plus the original MRD). This tallies with the count given in the Lawrence book (although he says 11 cars were "built in 1962").
For those of you who like to keep track of these cars, I am now the owner of chassis FJ-6-62 (ex-Olthoff etc.). – bought in July 2005 entirely thanks to this thread! At least Wayne got those photos he wanted!

I have now bought FJ-6-62 (ex-Olthoff and Mussa etc.).

Rudolf

[Chris Chilcott]

FYI I have become the new/latest owner of FJ-8-63. Bryan is already helping me with its history/original spec! Thanks Bryan!

[Bryan Miller]

Chris,

I may also help more if you don't do typo's .

Try FJ-8-62

[Chris Chilcott]

Sorry Bryan - Of cause I meant FJ-8-62 - Need a new proof reader (Or glasses)!

[royster]

Wayne:
I got started in racing thanks to Doc Wyllie. I am surprised that his name would appear in conjunction with your BT2 Brabham. I know he never raced in FJ but concentrated on under 2 liter sports racing cars such as the Lola Mk1, Elva Mk 7, Lotus 15 and the Bobsy SR3. He would also do LeMans (last year being 1966 in a Ford GT40 with Scuderia Bear) and Sebring either in a Lotus Elite or his own car.
His connection to Brabham was through Gulf Research which he headed back in the late 60's and until June 1970 when he was transferred by Gulf to London. Jack visited Gulf Research many times and was a dinner guest of Doc and his wife Peggy on numerous occasions.
I hope this answers some of your questions and I wish you the best in restoring the BT2.

[ChrisChilcott]

In researching FJ-8-62 I have drawn up a spread sheet of all 1962 and early 63 BT2 appearances, with driver/entrant chassis no (where known) in an effort to unravel which car appeared where.
To aid identification I have used period magazines and photos plus some logic and a lot of help from Bryan Millar.
If anyone would like a copy (bear in mind this is still 'work in progress') let me know, however what I am really looking for is cockpit photos especially for early 62. I have the ones from March 27 Autosport, May 62 'Motor Racing' (BRSCC magazine) and the July Sports Car Graphic articles.
The early cars & works cars had a fuel pressure gauge, plus don't carry a chassis plate on the dash (Not really surprising as I think there would be more pressing priorities!). I have one photo from Ted the Ferret showing Frank Gardner's car (FJ- 2 or 3 or 8!) at Snetterton in early April, which I will try to upload (With Ted's permission of course)
Duncan R says FJ-2 was shipped to Australia as a kit.... but this seems to have completely disappeared.
FJ- 1 is now known to definitely be the Cunningham car.
My question is how to prove/disprove if Frank used FJ-3 for the early (April) races until Gavin Youl arrived, then build FJ-8 as the second 'works' car? or was FJ 8 the second car built but not given a chassis plate until its first overseas race at Monaco in early June, when it would need an identification for its carnet to cross France & return without paying taxes etc?

[Grant Craft]

This is the history I have for my car FJ-3-62

[Rupertlt1]

https://revslib.stanford.edu/catalog/tg514qk8543

RGDS RLT

[Rupertlt1]

Delete

[Rupertlt1]

https://revslib.stanford.edu/catalog/wn959kj7888

RGDS RLT

[Rupertlt1]

https://revslib.stanford.edu/catalog/ny703hd4723

RGDS RLT

[Chris Chilcott]

I have done a considerable amount of research into the early (1962) race appearances of the BT2's.
Grants History of his car, FJ-3-62 and my car FJ-8-62 (the two Brabham Racing Organisation 'works' cars) is interesting as I am still trying to ascertain which 'works' car did what up to the point at which both cars appeared together for the first time, which was at the Silverstone International on 12th May 62.
There seems to be no record of what happened to chassis 2 apart from Duncan Rabagliati saying it was sold as a kit (no engine/gear box), therefore popular opinion seems to think that Frank built & used chassis 3 until Gavin Youl arrived from Australia, by which time he had built another car for himself, which became chassis 8.
In my research I found that the first two BT2's were built using 16 gauge tubing (Ref Jack Brabham writing in 'Motor Racing', the BRSCC magazine in May 62) the 'production chassis' were made of a thicker gauge tube (14?) as the two pre production chassis were 35lb under weight & had to carry ballast. I have inspected FJ-1-62 (The Cunningham car now owned by Robs Lamplough ex Wayne Mitchell)) and it has 16 gauge tubing. I am in the process of looking out all the sections of the original frame which came with my car in order to measure the tube thickness.
The first cars also did not carry chassis plates (reference photos taken at Brands Hatch early March 62 - probably chassis 1 and Goodwood on March 29th - the first 'works' car later numbered 3 or 8.
My theory is that the chassis plates were not exactly a priority at MRD in early 62, when they were frantically building cars for sale to fund the F1 car. As such the works car (i.e. Frank Gardner's) was not numbered in terms of being given a chassis plate until it went to Monaco on June 2nd. Although Youl raced as a 'works' entry I think he bought his car, as he had with the MRD.
It is possible that chassis 2 was the spare MRD frame (This via Simon Ambrose - Buckler Register). There also seems to be some doubt as to who built the 'production' chassis Progress or Arch motors?
I am certain that my car was never given the chassis number 2 and then re numbered 8 after an accident as it does not appear to have been in a serious shunt until 25/26th August 62 at the Roskilde Ring
After all these years we probably will never find the answers but it has been fun researching this!

[allenbrown]

Chris, one possibility that I considered while writing the dossier on Rob's car, is that FJ-1 was the original MRD, the car we retrospectively call the BT1, FJ-2 was the first of the 1962 cars, the car we retrospectively call BT2 FJ-1-62, and FJ-3 was the next car, Frank's BT2. When the production cars started to be built and were given proper chassis plates, they continued this numbering system and were FJ-4-62, FJ-5-62 and so on. That would explain the missing number.

On balance, I decided this was too revisionist and had too little evidence to support it. However, it may mean you are looking for a car that never existed.

[Chris Chilcott]

Hi Allen,

Thanks for your reply - I have started re reading this entire thread - OMG Help me please!!!

In my research (Bryan Millar gave me some good advice - try & think as though you were back in 62, not now!) I started working from each of the cars first known appearances & came up with the following. Forgive me but I am working on the basis that FJ-1-62 was the Cunningham car....

First 62 car - FJ-1-62 (Cunningham) - Driven by Dick Thompson Sebring 23rd March. This car was flown out to the USA & my guess is that it is the car tested at Brands Hatch in early March 62 as reported in Autosport 22nd March. The Cunningham web site states this car as being FJ-1-62 but also elsewhere FJ-2-62! (I tried contacting them but no success/reply) -
However in an earlier BT2 post (7th Nov 2007) by Chris Townsend - "The Gelb car:
The plate reads BRABHAM, Racing Development Ltd, Surrey, England, FJ.1.62
Car was purchased in autumn 1965 from David Pabst, brother of Augie Pabst both of whom had raced it earlier that year.
The car was said to have come from Briggs Cunningham in 1964 or early 65.
Gelb sold it late 1968"

The 2nd Car FJ-3(?)-62 tested by Jack Brabham /Frank Gardner on 29th March at Goodwood (I pinned down the exact date via various references to Jack's flight after the test) - reported by John Blunsden in Motor Racing May 62 (BRSCC magazine) later re written in Sports Car Graphics July 62 with different photographs. On close inspection the car in the photographs have differences so may be of more than one car!

Interestingly the Autosport report by David Phipps states the first two cars are going to the USA

I am assuming the car tested at Goodwood is Frank Garners i.e. the first works car. & could be chassis 3 or car with no number later to become 8....
(Remember that chassis plates were not available/fitted to the early cars - the Cunningham car plate was probably sent to him afterwards as it appears to have never been fitted to the car (ref above & photos in Autosport/Motor Racing)

3 could be the car above - but first confirmed appearance 11th May with Youl

We know that the next 3 cars were numbered
4
5
(both appeared on 29th April at Montlery for Moench & Schlesser)
and
6 was the Oltoff car - which didn't appear until Crystal Palace on 11th June (When Hulme drove Youl's works car FJ-3-62). Possibly 6 was late due to having a BMC engine.....?

Then we have

7? Hap Sharp at Elkhart Lake 16th June 62 - so it would need to have been finished/shipped late May 62
Earlier post states 7 was sold to H Cole, so did Hap Sharpe drive for him???? OR is this FJ-2-62!!!!!!. Earlier post suggests Hap Sharpe did not drive for Cunningham...... so not FJ-1-62. Coles first race as driver was Oklahoma City on 4th Nov 62

8 Frank Garners works car - possibly not numbered until it needed an ID plate to go to Monaco on June 2nd. Could also be car tested on 29th March/first works car), as with 3 definitely around by 11th May 62 as above

This is I think the first batch - made up of 2-3 frames made by MRD & the rest by Progress or Arch motors

9 The Cliff Ward car - first appearance 15th Sept 62 Silverstone (Though I have it as DNA that day)

10 Ernie De Vos first appearance 9th Dec 62 at the Nassau Speed Week Report states ' Ernie de Vos disqualified for taking a shortcut in his new Brabham'

11 as known, is not a BT2

12 First race was in Australia 10th Feb 63 - Alex Mildren(David Walker)

With my 1962 hat on (!)

We know the first two chassis were built at MRD by Frank Garner & co
These were of a smaller gauge tubing than the production chassis (Made by Progress or Arch Motors?) and braised rather than welded.

The Cunningham car is definitely 16 gauge tubing, I have some of my original chassis (FJ-8-62) and it is braised. Grant Craft's chassis 3 has been significantly repaired over the years so yields no clues as to if it is one of the first 2.
Bear in mind, between Feb and end of April 62 they (MRD, Frank Gardner et all) would have been 'flat out' completing cars they could sell.

So we have 2/3 chassis built by the works
1st Cunningham car
2nd either 3 or 8
A batch of production chassis ordered/delivered by April 62
Definitely 4 through to 7, might 3 have been built using a 'production' chassis?

A 2nd batch of chassis 9 through to 12 probably ordered after the strong showing of the first 'batch'

This still doesn't really explain FJ-2-62................. unless it is Hap Sharpe

I need a drink now!!! If you want I can send you my spread sheet......

[Rupertlt1]

Do you know the race number?

RGDS RLT

[Chris Chilcott]

Originally Posted by Rupertlt1

Do you know the race number?

RGDS RLT

Not sure - I cannot upload this photo I found of the Cunningham BT2, but here is the link. It carries No 61 here.

https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/349943833525711998/

[Chris Chilcott]

Originally Posted by Rupertlt1

Do you know the race number?

RGDS RLT

According to the programme it was No 9 to be driven by Roger Penske

http://www.cliffreuter.com/etceterin...ts1962.htm#seb

[Chris Chilcott]

According to the race programme (See http://www.cliffreuter.com/etceterin...esults1962.htm)

it was #9, however Cunningham seems to habitually swap both car numbers & programmed drivers - Race organisers would throw a fit nowadays!

I think this is the Cunningham BT2 #7
https://revslib.stanford.edu/catalog/hx186sb2807
which was entered by Cunningham as a Cooper -BMC to be driven by Walt Hansgen
#8 was entered as a Cooper Fiat to be driven by Cunningham
#9 was entered as the Brabham Ford to be driven by Roger Penske.
Not surprisingly there was confusion in the press (Autosport) reports too as to who was driving what in the event reports......

[Rupertlt1]

Macau Grand Prix (all research by Phil Newsome)

17 November 1963, 60 laps
#27 Brabham FJ, Ted Carter, qualified 2nd, dark colour, "Ted Carter" written on cockpit side, nose stripe, unclassified
Photographs: Colour and Noise, Phil Newsome, Pages 75, 76
(Brabham BT2 FJ-6-62)

15 November 1964, 60 laps
#18 Brabham FJ, Arsenio Laurel, qualified 5th, DNF ret'd L7
#4 Brabham FJ, Martin Redfern, qualified 6th, unclassified
Photograph: Colour and Noise, Phil Newsome, Page 78

28 November 1965, 60 laps
#10 Brabham FJ, Arsenio Laurel, 5th place, 57 laps

20 November 1966, 60 laps
#19 Brabham, Arsenio Laurel, qualified 11th, unclassified
#8 Brabham, Lee Han Seng, qualified 4th
#31 Brabham, Filipe Nogueira, qualified 2nd, DNF ret'd L2 engine
Newsome says the car of Nogueira airfreighted to San Francisco in error and he had to "borrow Teddy Yip's Brabham..." but later identified as a Lotus 22.
What was the Nogueira car?
Photograph #8: Colour and Noise, Phil Newsome, Page 86, "George Lee Racing" written on cockpit side, large Shell sticker

RGDS RLT