What about the "old" GT3 race cars?

[deimh]

Hi all

I was wondering how many GT3 cars had been built in all? An earlier thread indicated that around 500 had been built by all manufacturers, but then stated that Audi alone had built 200, which seemed odd.

So first question, how many GT3 cars in total do the learned here estimate have been built and how many from the major manufacturers (e.g. Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Aston, Audi, etc.).

Secondly, what percentage do people believe have been written off through accidents, converted to other / updated race cars, etc.

Thirdly, what is going to happen to all the GT3 cars not racing because they are no longer competitive against the latest and greatest? Do people see "historic" racing of these cars in the near term (like we see with historic Group C racing now), or will they migrate down to "club racing" - for example at the Old Timer GP at the Nurburgring this year the German Ferrari Owners Club had a couple or races that included GT3's (458 and 488) as well as Challenge cars (360, 430 and 458) as well as the odd 430 GTE and the like.

I imagine that as GT3 cars get more sophisticated and more costly to run (like the Ferrari 458 having turbos versus the 458 being normally aspirated) and potentially becoming "hybrid" of sorts will the "older" GT3 cars become more sought after? And if so how / where will they be used / raced?

Really interested in people's views!

[Speed-King]

Regarding the numbers built, a lot depends on the question how you count the first generation one-make cars like the Porsche 997 GT3 Cup, the Ferrari 430 Challenge or the Viper CC. Back in 2006, they were all elegible - with minor modifications - for GT3 competition and especially the Porsche Cup car was produced in massive numbers - I'd be surprised if the Porsche alone didn't account for 500 cars.

I guess, though, that you are more interested in the slightly later 2nd generation of GT3 cars, i.e. the first group of really bespoke cars such as the original Audi R8, the BMW Z4 and the Mercedes SLS. It's quite surprising, but you really don't see many of those around anymore, even in club competition - now I don't know what the reason for this could be, but those 2009 - 2014 cars really aren't raced anywhere in great numbers despite there being so many of them around.

[deimh]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I guess, though, that you are more interested in the slightly later 2nd generation of GT3 cars, i.e. the first group of really bespoke cars such as the original Audi R8, the BMW Z4 and the Mercedes SLS. It's quite surprising, but you really don't see many of those around anymore, even in club competition - now I don't know what the reason for this could be, but those 2009 - 2014 cars really aren't raced anywhere in great numbers despite there being so many of them around.

You are spot on, its the bespoke GT3 cars that I was really thinking about (what you refer to as the second generation), and it was seeing a couple of Ferrari 458 GT3 racing at the Old Timer GP a couple of months back in the German FOC event that made me start to ponder this.

Do people think that there are between 500 and 1000 of these second generation GT3 cars out there? And are they all gathering dust somewhere, or written off / broken-up?

Also, your answer implied that there is a 3rd Generation of GT3 from 2015 onwards - is this the case and how do these differ from the 2009-14 cars?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by deimh

Also, your answer implied that there is a 3rd Generation of GT3 from 2015 onwards - is this the case and how do these differ from the 2009-14 cars?

I don't think there are official generations, it's more like my personal view:

Gen 1: original one make cars and cars produced by tuners like Reiter or low volume manufacturers like Morgan and Mosler

Gen 2: the first of the bespoke factory-built cars such as the SLS, the original R8 and the Porsche 997 GT3R. I don't think there are more than 500 of those, probably considerably less, seeing how the GT3 market was already contracting at the time with several series shutting down or moving away from an all GT3 format.

Gen 3: the second wave of factory-built cars and the ultimate demise of tuner operations with Reiter losing the license to build the new Lambo. So that's the Huracan, the angular looking R8 and the AMG GT.

There are some cars that are inbetweeners like the original Vantage, debuting in 2010(?) but being Aston's main weapon all the way to 2018. Similarly, the Nissan only saw a major update last year.

[deimh]

Thanks for the insights.

So just to understand (and using a single marque as an example):

Gen 1: Ferrari 360/430 GTE
Gen 2: Ferrari 458 GT3
Gen 3: Ferrari 488 GT3

Is that your thinking?

[Truckosaurus]

Does anyone keep a list of chassis numbers for any of the marques?

It would be interesting to see the histories of the cars, how many get the annual updates and race for multiple seasons and then drop down the hierarchy of races into series with more liberal regulations and get further tweaks.

Are any GT3 cars racing in the 'GT Legends' type series or is that just 'Le Mans spec' GT cars so far?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by deimh

Thanks for the insights.

So just to understand (and using a single marque as an example):

Gen 1: Ferrari 360/430 GTE
Gen 2: Ferrari 458 GT3
Gen 3: Ferrari 488 GT3

Is that your thinking?

The 360 never was a GT3 car, so for the Ferrari the first generation would be the F430 GT3, and maybe as a Generation 1.5 the 430 Scuderia, which (like the Porsche Cup-S, and the Viper Series 2) was an attempt by the factory to update the one-make series car to keep it competitive with the bespoke GT3s.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Truckosaurus

Does anyone keep a list of chassis numbers for any of the marques?

There's a list of the Aston Martin Vantages here:

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143190

Not sure if there are lists for any of the others around.

[deimh]

The link that lists all the Aston's got me wondering how many of the slightly more plentiful GT3 cars might have been built - so I have started trying to compile how many separate Ferrari 458 GT3 cars were being raced across the various series between 2011 (first year of the 458 GT3) and 2016 (first year of the 488 GT3).

I am hoping to see a shift of 458 GT3's from the larger / prestigious race series to the smaller / less-prestigious ones.

So far this is what I have compiled across the below Series:

Year **** A **** B *** C *** D *** E
2011 **** 7 **** 7 *** 0 *** 0 *** ?
2012 *** 19 *** 16 *** 0 *** 3 *** ?
2013 *** 35 *** 30 *** 2 *** 3 *** ?
2014 *** 30 *** 21 *** 4 *** 5 *** ?
2015 *** 33 *** 24 *** 1 *** 5 *** 3
2016 *** 13 **** 7 *** 1 *** 5 *** ?

Where:

A = Total Ferrari 458 GT3
B = Blancpain Endurance Series
C = Blancpain GT World Challenge Europe
D = Australian GT Championship
E = 24H

Its interesting to see how the 458 GT3 is most plentiful in 2013 and then starts to fade away in these "premier classes", despite still being produced by Ferrari up to the end of 2015.

Can people point to which other Series are most likley to have included the highest number of separate 458 GT3's so I can try and make the above analysis more complete and try to "confirm" how many 458 GT3's are likley to have been produce?

[Speed-King]

From the top of my head, the only other series with major GT3 fields around that time period were International GT Open, Pirelli World Challenge, IMSA/Grand Am, ADAC GT and British GT, though the latter were usually rather light on Ferraris. I keep forgetting when the GT3 iteration of French GT collapsed, but they had quite a few Ferraris running in their last years as well.

Edit: Forgot about the Asian series, so there are probably a few more in GT Asia, Thailand Supercar and perhaps in Super GT or one of the Chinese national series, though my information on that is really somewhat limited.

[merak1974]

In the case of Maserati, the count is simple:

- 10 Trofeo Light GT3 (2004-2006)
- 1 Gran Turismo MC GT3 (2013)

[Middelboe]

Originally Posted by deimh

Can people point to which other Series are most likley to have included the highest number of separate 458 GT3's so I can try and make the above analysis more complete and try to "confirm" how many 458 GT3's are likley to have been produce?

Ferrari (Michelotto) built around 105 458 GT3's.

[deimh]

	Total	Blancpain Endurance Series	Blancpain GT World Challenge Europe	Australian GT Championship	24H	Asian Le Mans Series	Blancpain GT World Challenge America	GT3 Brasil Championship	British GT Championship
2011	14	7	0	0	?	0	0	1	6
2012	23	16	0	3	?	0	0	1	3
2013	50	30	2	3	?	2	0	2	11
2014	43	21	4	5	?	2	3	0	8
2015	44	24	1	5	3	2	7	0	2
2016	20	7	1	5	?	5	2	0	0

I have expanded the analysis on the Ferrari 458 GT3 and its clear that the main series like the Endurance series and British GT peak with the max number of 458 GT3's in 2013 and then one can see 458 GT3's starting to appear in greater numbers in the likes of the Asian and Australian GT Series.

This analysis is still not 100% complete, as I am missing out a few GT3 series, but I think that I have captured the vast majority of 458 GT3's (say 80%? - would those in the know agree, or not?). Also I'm sure that there is some double counting in my analysis, where I am likley counting the same car being driven by different drivers in different rounds twice. Hence the numbers in the table might be closer to 90% accurate - I will in time expand the analysis and we will see.

But in the interim:

It looks that Ferrari must have made about 50 or so 458 GT3's by the end of 2013 - and then the total number that I can track seems to decline down to 44 cars by 2015 (the last year before the 488 GT3 was released).

From the data it looks like that the annual production numbers were something like this:

2011: 14 cars built
2012: 9 cars built (increase from 14 to 23 458 GT3's)
2013: 22 cars built (increase from 23 to 50 458 GT3's)
2014 and 2015: 0 cars built (no increase in numbers of 458 GT3;s)

So the two questions are:

1) Did Ferrari (or rather Michelotto) largely cease building new 458 GT3's around 2014/5 as their popularity declined - otherwise surely we would keep seeing their numbers increasing as more were built
2) Were 458 GT3's being written off and not rebuilt (with numbers racing dropping from 50 in 2013 to 44 in 2015), or were they just being mothballed and/or going into "club-type" racing?

Really interested in understanding Michelotto's production number year by year...

[deimh]

Originally Posted by Middelboe

Ferrari (Michelotto) built around 105 458 GT3's.

Sorry, I missed your message whilst I was writing my previous message.

That is brilliant data - thanks for that Middelboe!

This shows that so far I am only accounting for about half of all the 458 GT3's built - but as I mentioned, my analysis is incomplete and I will expand it and try to determine where the "missing" 50-odd 458 GT3's were racing.

Can I please ask what the source of the 105 number is and how confident you are that it is correct. I ask this as I am struggling to think where the other 50 or so 458 GT3's were / missing from my analysis. Also, any insights in to production levels year by year - I assume that most were built between 2011 to 2013 when their demand was highest?

Also, do you have a feel / data on how many of the 105 458 GT3's might have been written off - or are their values such that even in the event of a huge crash they would be rebodied on a new monocoque?

Interested in your further insights!

[Middelboe]

106 (and not 105 as I wrote previously) is the amount of individual chassis numbers. 3202 is the first (built in 2011) and 3614 is the last (built in 2015) (only even numbers in the 32xx, 34xx and 36xx series, 3400 was not used but 3600 was). This also includes the “Grand-Am” spec cars that went to IMSA before they used “normal” GT3’s.

A lot of the cars only raced a couple of seasons in the major championships. Most of these were then sold to private individuals - or kept by the teams as spares - when new cars were brought in or the team stopped racing. 3204 was kept by Michelotto as the basis for the development of the 458 GT3, others were never raced, and others was only raced in “gentlemen series”.

As far as yearly production goes I don’t really know, because the cars were not necessarily built in a “sequential order”. What I mean by that is, that a car with a higher number might have been completed before a car with a lower number. Having said that, the fact that cars with numbers in the mid to high 34xx range start to appear in 2013 suggest, that the majority of the cars were built between 2011 and 2013. 3446, 3448 and 3450 al had their first race at Daytona at the end of January 2013. The car that won GTD at the 24 Hours of Daytona in 2014 was 3484, and that car was delivered to the team in late 2013. This suggest that only 10-15 new cars were built during 2014/2015.

The only car I can think of that has been rebuilt with a new chassis is 3494 that was destroyed at Spa in 2014. There has been a number of large crashes with the 458 GT3, but in most cases the chassis was not damaged (only the bolt on parts), so most of the cars were repaired. I don’t know of any cars that has been completely written off, but I would guess that 5-10 cars are no longer in a working/raceable condition.

[deimh]

Middelboe - PM sent

[Willmaz223]

Some GT3s such as the 458 , MP4 12c and R8 LMS Ultra have been racing in historic series and been performing well. Maybe a possible individual class for the future.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Truckosaurus

Does anyone keep a list of chassis numbers for any of the marques?

Working on one. Up to around 200 cars now.

Also have a TCR one in the works, too.

[skycafe]

In the US Trans Am will now have a class for 2016 and earlier GT-3 cars. http://gotransam.com/news/Trans-Am-S...pZDeEa-8cJoR5E

[broadrun96]

And from that press release:

“There are believed to be more than 100 GT3 race cars in North America that are no longer eligible to run in the professional series that they originally competed in,” said Trans Am Company President John Clagett.

“These cars have a lot of good life remaining in them, but there are not really any good places for those cars to race competitively. The Trans Am Series intends to deliver a professionally-run series for drivers to compete in these cars and fully exhibit their potential.”