[LM24] Le Mans Trap Speeds

[sssssssss]

hello!

does anyone have the top speeds for the 1999, 2000 and 2004 le mans races? i know the qualifying ones are on mulsannescorner, but i could never find the ones attained in the races themselves, to see how they compare.

thank you!

[Aysedasi]

Well, that's a blast from the past! (and what ever did happen to Splatz the Cow.....?)

[chernaudi]

Mulsanne's Corner had both practice/qualifying and the race up to 2003.

Le Mans History has them for individual cars if you look up entries for a particular year, but it's hit and miss:

http://www.lemans-history.com/index2.php

I know that the WEC has them from 2011 onwards, but I don't know of anything other than maybe the Le Mans Annual books that would have that info. I don't even think that the ACO's site or even lemans.org has anything like that on there.

[sssssssss]

both le mans history and mulsannescorner only have the qualifying ones fr '99-'00. there are some sources claiming a 339 km/h for the toyota gt-one and a 338 km/h for lola in the 1999 race, which sounds plausible, but nothing about the other cars.

[sssssssss]

for those interested, here is a top of the most important contenders since 1990 (except for a few years), this is mostly aco history on the matter, but some of them (especially in the hybrid era, as noted in brackets, can also come from onboard telemetry):

RACE (*=before indianapolis):

354 km/h - 2015 audi r18 e-tron quattro (onboard telemetry, aco data says 346)
353 km/h - 1990 jaguar xjr-12
348 km/h - 2010 peugeot 908 hdi-fap
347 km/h - 2010 audi r15+
345 km/h - 2008 peugeot 908 hdi-fap
345 km/h - 1990 porsche 962 c
344 km/h - 2010 aston martin lola
343 km/h - 2011 peugeot 908
343 km/h - 2014 toyota ts040 (onboard telemetry, aco data says 339)
341 km/h - 2014 audi r18 e-tron quattro (onboard telemetry, aco data says 339)
341 km/h - 2009 peugeot 908 hdi-fap
340 km/h - 2015 porsche 919 hybrid
340 km/h - 2007 peugeot 908 hdi-fap (onboard telemetry, aco data says 339)
339 km/h - 2008 audi r10 tdi
339 km/h - 2007 audi r10 tdi
339 km/h - 1999 toyota ts020
338 km/h - 1990 nissan r90cp
338 km/h - 2015 nissan gt-r lm
338 km/h - 2017 porsche 919 hybrid
337 km/h - 2015 toyota ts040
337 km/h - 2017 toyota ts050
336 km/h - 2011 audi r18 tdi
335 km/h - 2013 audi r18 e-tron quattro (onboard telemetry, aco data says 331)
335 km/h - 1990 mazda 787
334 km/h - 2016 toyota ts050
334 km/h - 2014 porsche 919 hybrid
334 km/h - 2016 porsche 919 hybrid
332 km/h - 1996 courage c36
330 km/h - 2002 audi r8
330 km/h - 2016 audi r18
330 km/h - 2009 audi r15 tdi
330 km/h - 1996 mclaren f1 gtr
330 km/h - 2012 toyota ts030
329 km/h (some sources say 335 km/h) - 2006 audi r10 tdi
327 km/h - 2012 audi r18 ultra
327 km/h - 1996 ferrari 333 sp
326 km/h - 2012 audi r18 e-tron quattro
326 km/h - 2003 bentley speed 8
326 km/h - 2013 toyota ts030
325 km/h - 2003 audi r8
324 km/h*- 1998 bmw v12 lm
324 km/h - 1996 porsche 911 gt1
321 km/h - 2011 peugeot-oreca 908 hdi-fap
320 km/h - 1996 joest porsche wsc95
316 km/h*- 1998 toyota ts020
313 km/h*- 1998 ferrari 333 sp
312 km/h*- 1998 nissan r390 gt1
308 km/h*- 1998 mclaren f1 gtr
308 km/h*- 1998 mercedes clk-lm
303 km/h*- 1998 porsche 911 gt1
303 km/h*- 1995 mclaren f1 gtr
296 km/h*- 1995 jaguar xj220 c
295 km/h*- 1995 ferrari 333 sp
295 km/h*- 1995 toyota supra

ALL SESSIONS (*=before indianapolis):

366 km/h - 1990 nissan r90 cp
359 km/h - 1990 porsche 962 c
354 km/h - 2015 audi r18 e-tron quattro
354 km/h - 1990 jaguar xjr-12
352 km/h*- 1999 toyota ts020
349 km/h - 1999 audi r8c
349 km/h - 1999 mercedes clr (344 km/h*)
348 km/h - 2010 audi r15+
348 km/h - 2010 peugeot 908 hdi-fap
348 km/h - 1990 mazda 787
345 km/h - 2008 peugeot 908 hdi-fap
344 km/h - 2010 aston martin lola
343 km/h - 2016 audi r18
343 km/h - 2011 peugeot 908
343 km/h - 2014 toyota ts040
342 km/h - 1999 bmw v12 lmr
341 km/h - 2014 audi r18 e-tron quattro
341 km/h - 2009 peugeot 908 hdi-fap
340 km/h - 2015 porsche 919 hybrid
340 km/h - 2007 peugeot 908 hdi-fap
339 km/h - 2008 audi r10 tdi
339 km/h - 2007 audi r10 tdi
338 km/h - 2015 nissan gt-r lm
338 km/h - 2017 porsche 919 hybrid
337 km/h - 2015 toyota ts040
337 km/h - 2017 toyota ts050
336 km/h - 2011 audi r18 tdi
335 km/h - 1999 audi r8r
335 km/h - 2013 audi r18 e-tron quattro
335 km/h - 2016 toyota ts050
334 km/h - 2014 porsche 919 hybrid
334 km/h - 2016 porsche 919 hybrid
332 km/h - 1996 courage c36
331 km/h - 2012 audi r18 ultra
330 km/h - 2002 audi r8
330 km/h - 2009 audi r15 tdi
330 km/h - 1996 mclaren f1 gtr
330 km/h - 2012 toyota ts030
329 km/h (/335 km/h) - 2006 audi r10 tdi
327 km/h - 1996 ferrari 333 sp
326 km/h - 2012 audi r18 e-tron quattro
326 km/h - 2003 bentley speed 8
326 km/h*- 1998 nissan r390 gt1
326 km/h - 2013 toyota ts030
325 km/h - 2003 audi r8
325 km/h*- 1998 mercedes clk-lm
325 km/h*- 1998 toyota ts020
324 km/h*- 1998 bmw v12 lm
324 km/h - 1996 porsche 911 gt1
321 km/h - 2011 peugeot-oreca 908 hdi-fap
320 km/h - 1996 joest porsche wsc95
319 km/h*- 1998 ferrari 333 sp
315 km/h*- 1998 mclaren f1 gtr
310 km/h*- 1998 porsche 911 gt1
303 km/h*- 1995 mclaren f1 gtr
296 km/h*- 1995 jaguar xj220 c
295 km/h*- 1995 ferrari 333 sp
295 km/h*- 1995 toyota supra

however, i still can't find relevant data for race speed in '99, '00 and '04.

[rich07]

Are there any figures out there for the GTS/GT1 cars from 2003-2009? Im intrigued as to what the Saleens/Ferrari 550+575/Corvettes/Astons hit as I believe none of them broke 200mph but apparently the earlier cars came close at around 195mph.

[ss_collins]

The problem with comparing the speeds is that you are not really comparing like with like. There was a long time when the ACO had the speed trap in the wrong place. But also when you compare speeds from different sources you get different results. Years back I did my own set of apex speeds and peak speeds with Marshall Pruett's kit, I cross referenced my results against those of a LMP1 works team and while the results differed the difference was consistent. So it is about which calibration you trust most.

At Le Mans at the moment the hybrid cars are in lift and coast at the speed trap so we don't see their top speeds.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

for those interested, here is a top of the most important contenders since 1990 (except for a few years), this is mostly aco history on the matter, but some of them (especially in the hybrid era, as noted in brackets, can also come from onboard telemetry):


however, i still can't find relevant data for race speed in '99, '00 and '04.

How about a link to the site(s)? 'Would be good to give credit where credit's due....

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by jimclark

How about a link to the site(s)? 'Would be good to give credit where credit's due....

most of them are not sites, they come from the le mans annuals. from 2011 on, they're from here (unless otherwise noted): http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/
some older ones also come from different archived .pdf files from the time of those races.

Originally Posted by ss_collins

The problem with comparing the speeds is that you are not really comparing like with like. There was a long time when the ACO had the speed trap in the wrong place. But also when you compare speeds from different sources you get different results. Years back I did my own set of apex speeds and peak speeds with Marshall Pruett's kit, I cross referenced my results against those of a LMP1 works team and while the results differed the difference was consistent. So it is about which calibration you trust most.

At Le Mans at the moment the hybrid cars are in lift and coast at the speed trap so we don't see their top speeds.

yes, as far as hybrids go, the speed traps don't tell the whole truth, although over the course of 24 hours, they come somewhat closer to the real speeds than in the practice/quali sessions. anyway, that's why, for the hybrids, i noted the highest speed i've seen on the onboard telemetry, where it was available, if it was higher than the highest trap speed on the aco data.

by the way, when did aco have the speed trap at the wrong place and where was it placed?

sam, do you happen to have any of that data still available (your own measurements from different years and the measurements of the teams that you mention)?

Originally Posted by rich07

Are there any figures out there for the GTS/GT1 cars from 2003-2009? Im intrigued as to what the Saleens/Ferrari 550+575/Corvettes/Astons hit as I believe none of them broke 200mph but apparently the earlier cars came close at around 195mph.

i have got 2005, 2006 and 2007:

2005 gt1 race top speeds:
aston martin dbr9: 302 km/h (both cars)
ferrari 550 maranello (larbre & cirtek): 301 km/h (290 km/h & 289 km/h for the bms ferraris)
corvette: 294 km/h & 290 km/h
ferrari 575 gtc (jmb): 290 km/h

for comparison, the 2005 playstation audi r8 went 318 km/h, the champion ones 310 km/h, the pescarolos 325 km/h.


2006 gt1 race top speeds:
aston martin dbr9: 305 km/h & 301 km/h
aston martin dbr9 (russian age): 305 km/h
corvette (alphand): 305 km/h
ferrari 550 maranello (covers menX & russian age): 304 km/h
corvette (corvette racing): 304 km/h & 300 km/h
ferrari 550 maranello (larbre): 301 km/h
lamborghini murcielago (jloc): 299 km/h
saleen s7-r (acemco): 297 km/h
aston martin dbr9 (bms): 291 km/h

2007 gt1 race top speeds:
saleen s7-r (oreca): 304 km/h & 297 km/h
aston martin dbr9 (larbre): 302 km/h
corvette (alphand): 301 km/h & 297 km/h
aston martin dbr9 (amr): 300 km/h (both cars)
corvette (corvette racing): 299 km/h & 298 km/h
corvette (psi): 298 km/h
aston martin dbr9 (bms): 297 km/h
ferrari 550 maranello (convers menX): 295 km/h

if i remember correctly, the late '90s/early 2000s gt1/gts cars were as fast as you say on the straights. the old vipers used to top at over 310 km/h i think.

[sssssssss]

so, nobody having the t.s. data from the actual race for 1999, 2000 and 2004?

[chernaudi]

From Mulsanne's Corner:

1999: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/trap.htm

2000: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/trap00.html

Mike hasn't posted anything about trap speeds on his site since 2003. All info is what's listed in those years' LM annual.

[ss_collins]

by the way, when did aco have the speed trap at the wrong place and where was it placed?

sam, do you happen to have any of that data still available (your own measurements from different years and the measurements of the teams that you mention)?

For some years the speed trap was placed on the approach to Indianapolis, then moved slightly and was located in a braking zone. I don't recall when exactly though.

The data we got I think has been largely lost though there are some articles about it on Mulsannes corner and Racecar Engineering I think

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

For some years the speed trap was placed on the approach to Indianapolis, then moved slightly and was located in a braking zone. I don't recall when exactly though.

The data we got I think has been largely lost though there are some articles about it on Mulsannes corner and Racecar Engineering I think

apparently the speeds we have from 1996 up to 1998 are from the approach to indianapolis. also some older, but still post-1990 group c speeds were measured there and some of them are extremely high (i recall 366 km/h for a 962 in 1990, which also hit 354 in the race, also 363 km/h for mercedes c11 in practice).

Originally Posted by chernaudi

From Mulsanne's Corner:

1999: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/trap.htm

2000: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/trap00.html

Mike hasn't posted anything about trap speeds on his site since 2003. All info is what's listed in those years' LM annual.

yes, but those figures on mulsannescorner are all practice speeds. i was referring to the 1999 and 2000 races themselves. i only know 339 km/h for toyota gt-one and 338 km/h for lola in 1999 and some sources claim a 337 km/h for the 2000 audi r8 in the race, before indianapolis.

[sssssssss]

so, for those interested, i finally found the official trap speeds from the 1999 race and they are surprisingly high.
they are all measured before the breaking point for the second chicane (post p10 carte s), which means they are anywhere from 5 km/h to 10 km/h lower than the ones the cars did before the first chicane, and they're also only measured for a period of 4h. 30min. of the full 24 hours, so there might have been higher speeds even at this speed trap, which was positioned wrongly (unlike the one in qualifying, which was positioned correctly at post p8, hunaudieres restaurant, hence the higher top speeds). to be noted that the mercedes are significantly slower than the toyotas and the bmws in top speed terms (unlike in qualifying) because of the added downforce to the front of the cars to prevent what ultimately still happened. also surprising how close the bmws were in top speed to the toyotas, basically equal to the brundle car and faster than the katayama car. i expect the bmw to have hit at least the same top speeds at post p8 as they did in qualifying, which was 342 km/h, but i suspect they went even faster than that. the race setup of the bmw was much better in terms of performance than most people expected.

so with all that in mind, here they are:

339 km/h - Toyota TS020 no2
336 km/h - Toyota TS020 no1
336 km/h - BMW V12 LMR no17
336 km/h - Lola-Judd T98/10 no25
335 km/h - BMW V12 LMR no15
333 km/h - Toyota TS020 no3
332 km/h - Mercedes CLR no6
331 km/h - Audi R8C no9
331 km/h - Audi R8C no10
329 km/h - Panoz LMP-1 Roadster S no12
328 km/h - Audi R8R no8
328 km/h - Mercedes CLR no5
327 km/h - Audi R8R no7
327 km/h - Panoz LMP-1 Roadster S no11
327 km/h - Nissan-Courage C52 no21
326 km/h - Nissan R391 no22
324 km/h - Ferrari 333 SP no29
324 km/h - BMW V12 LM-98 no18
324 km/h - Lola-Ford T98/10 no27
322 km/h - Riley & Scott MKII/2 no32
320 km/h - Courage C52 no13
319 km/h - AutoExe LMP 99 no24
318 km/h - Lola-Ford T98/10 no26
314 km/h - Courage C50 no14
311 km/h - BMW V12 LM-98 no19
311 km/h - Riley & Scott MKIII/2 no31
FASTEST GTs:
304 km/h - Chrysler Viper GTS-R no51
298 km/h - Porsche 911 GT2 no64
287 km/h - Porsche 996 GT3 no81

so it is most probable that the cars reached around the same top speeds as in qualifying at post p8, before chicane no1 (except for mercedes, who added extra downforce to the cars to avoid them taking off), but they weren't measured there during the race.

[Bodysnatcher]

Excuse me for coming late to this, but you're getting your marshal post locations confused. As I have marshalled at 8 & 9 for the last few years (bar 2020) we've known for a while that we are just before the fastest area of the track, the cars being a blur at 9 as they pass.

Permit me to explain .

8 is at the crematorium
9 in front of the Audi dealership
10 nowhere memorable
11 deep into the braking zone for the first chicane.

google maps satellite view shows white lines on the hard shoulder at each location.
using streetview also shows the number
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@47.94...i8192?hl=en-GB

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

using streetview also shows the number
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@47.94...i8192?hl=en-GB

streetview also shows the timing loop buried at Poste 10.

and the second part just under the Merc
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@47.94...i8192?hl=en-GB