[Official] Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2022: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 2

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I think there is a combination of factors here that make quite a bit worse odds than one in a million.


The cars this year are stiffer, lower and have more downforce from the bottom. That makes high speed kerbs like this high very dangerous:

1 The low ride height mean the wheels can loose grip or even contact with the ground
2 The stiffer suspension does not as effectively absorb these Kerbs.
3 With the downforce coming more from the bottom having the car lifted from the track surface you loose a lot more downforce than previous years. Say last year you would loose 40% percent downforce, this year that could be 70%. If you come of the high speed kerb with a certain amount of yaw momentum and the car still bouncing off the kerb and not having re-established ground effect downforce, you are in a very tricky situation as a driver.

Normally that could be considered fine, part of your job as a driver, but here with the walls so close in this high speed section and not in the ideal angle, that's pretty dangerous.

There are a few points in your argument here that show the level of uncertainty in claiming the danger needs to be addressed:

'combination of factors' - how many factors, and what likelihood of them all occurring simultaneously?
'can loose grip' - but not certain that they will lose grip?
'does not as effectively absorb' - but does absorb to a certain amount. How much does that effectiveness need to be?
'this year that could be 70%' - but may not be. The amount of lost downforce is not specific.
'high speed kerb with [...] yaw [...] momentum [...] still bouncing [...] not having re-established [...] downforce' - a lot of variables all needing to align.
'walls so close in [...] and not in the ideal angle' - another two variables.


In summary, you have outlined a lot of variables that need to align for the risk event to materialise. The risk can be addressed by mitigating (or removing) any of the variables.

[Aysedasi]

The battle between the Ferrari drivers could well be very interesting indeed. My 'jury' remains out on Charles. He's very fast and proved himself to be pretty canny yesterday too. But he couldn't keep Max behind him (which I was a bit disappointed about). I've also seen him quite ragged at times in the past. He may have put that behind him though, particularly as he's now got a decent car and engine under him. Carlos remains within striking distance but clearly needs to feel 'right' about the car. The fact that he's picked up a second and a third when he doesn't, bodes well, IMO.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

There are a few points in your argument here that show the level of uncertainty in claiming the danger needs to be addressed:

'combination of factors' - how many factors, and what likelihood of them all occurring simultaneously?
'can loose grip' - but not certain that they will lose grip?
'does not as effectively absorb' - but does absorb to a certain amount. How much does that effectiveness need to be?
'this year that could be 70%' - but may not be. The amount of lost downforce is not specific.
'high speed kerb with [...] yaw [...] momentum [...] still bouncing [...] not having re-established [...] downforce' - a lot of variables all needing to align.
'walls so close in [...] and not in the ideal angle' - another two variables.


In summary, you have outlined a lot of variables that need to align for the risk event to materialise. The risk can be addressed by mitigating (or removing) any of the variables.

Yes, that is what is being suggested. Things should be altered to reduce the risk. Lowering the kerb a bit would be an obvious option. I don't know how much room there is to improve the angles of the walls in that area.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Yes, that is what is being suggested. Things should be altered to reduce the risk. Lowering the kerb a bit would be an obvious option. I don't know how much room there is to improve the angles of the walls in that area.

Has a full risk assessment been carried out, or is the danger only confirmed in the court of public opinion?

[seanyb505]

I think the biggest issue with DRS here was there was a detection zone right at the end of a deployment zone. Just picked up a place? Great, hope you cleared the guy by a second, otherwise you're about to give that place back.

Overall I don't mind it in regular races. But here it had the effect of neutralizing all passes made while using it lol.

My only other suggestion is at monaco it works in reverse. If you can follow a guy for under a second, his rear wing will open for a lap.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Has a full risk assessment been carried out, or is the danger only confirmed in the court of public opinion?

Good luck holding every post in a motorsport forum to the standard of a professional assessment. Personally I think that goes a bit beyond the purpose of a forum like this, but you can always ask for it to be taken up in the forum rules. I expect the traffic on the forum to reduce by about 90% though (caution, personal assessment). It's obviously a personal opinion based on my own and other people's judgement of the situation.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/schum...nitely-needed/

Schumacher has been ruled out of the Jeddah race after causing extensive damage to his VF-22 when he ran slightly wide onto a kerb on the exit of the Turn 9-10 Esses, lost the rear as the car bottomed out and crashed at high speed.

The same type of crash at the same place ruled Formula 2 driver Cem Bolukbasi out of his entire race weekend as well.
F1’s 2022 generation of cars are run lower and stiffer, like the F2 car, and are thus more vulnerable to this kind of incident on a high kerb, which several drivers have suggested should be altered at the Jeddah track.
Schumacher told media including The Race on Sunday: “From what I remember, last year was less of a concern, just because of the way the cars were built, we had a very high-rake car, the rear was usually quite up in the air.
“Nowadays, the cars go pretty low, especially at a [higher-speed] part of the circuit.
“So, the moment you do hit this kerb, which is quite high, the rear tyres lose contact to the surface. And that means that there will be a snap in some sort.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-dr...r-big-crashes/

He had to go to hospital for precautionary checks. Earlier in the weekend, Formula 2 racer Cem Bolukbasi was ruled out of the support event after his own heavy crash at the same place.
F1’s 2022 generation of cars are run lower and stiffer, similar in set-up to the F2 car.
“With this era of cars, with how you have to run them and how they’re designed, some kerbs throughout the year might need to change and I think this kerb is one of them,” said McLaren driver Norris on Saturday evening.
“It was already evident from Formula 2 because in Formula 2 you have to run the cars very low as well.
“There were two crashes and Cem was in hospital. With this type of cars, you can’t have such an aggressive kerb at such a speed that we’re running at.


As said before, I have no interest in discussing for the sake of discussing. I try to be respectful by responding, but I must admit, it takes some effort when you get the feeling the other person is more in it for the debate itself rather than for having a good look at the topic at hand.


P.S. Is what I said before on this subject: https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...9&postcount=13

- Possibly some serious design adjustment need when in practise the safety and driveability quirks of the new cars become real on real tracks with real curbs in high speed corners.

Possibly I should not have posted that, because I hadn't done a full risk assessment...

[Akrapovic]

Just throwing it out there - we're discussing how dangerous this track is. Yet Mick is fine. Seems to me like the car and track safety systems did their job...

Yes the drivers have highlighted this kerb may need to change, but it's worth noting that the kerbs are built to an FIA standard. There's a handful of different types (with some older ones being grand fathered in). This kerb type is in place in a lot of places. The cars have just changed. There will be issues found with compatibility of kerbs in many tracks.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Just throwing it out there - we're discussing how dangerous this track is. Yet Mick is fine. Seems to me like the car and track safety systems did their job...

Yes, thankfully. Although that is no guarantee it won't end up far worse in the future.

Yes the drivers have highlighted this kerb may need to change, but it's worth noting that the kerbs are built to an FIA standard. There's a handful of different types (with some older ones being grand fathered in). This kerb type is in place in a lot of places. The cars have just changed. There will be issues found with compatibility of kerbs in many tracks.

Yes, that's what I expect as well. Personally I think something like this happening on a track with run offs is acceptable and could even be seen as challenging as long as the risk of cars being flung into each other's path's is limited.

On this (part of the) track though, with the walls being as they are, I think it's a bit too much.

P.S. Pole position only 0.7s off from last year (slight track changes). High speed pace of the 2022 cars doing it's work. Will be interesting to see how that will evolves during the season.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I view it a bit differently - to me it is racing, but on a different level.
The intent is to gain a 'racing' advantage...

...I see this as the same with the DRS line approach - a driver is sacrificing their 'pace' now, to gain in the future.

i see it the same way. basically an extension of the switchback move.

personally i think its brilliant and demonstrates track knowledge and positional awareness...and its exciting.

Originally Posted by seanyb505

I think the biggest issue with DRS here was there was a detection zone right at the end of a deployment zone. Just picked up a place? Great, hope you cleared the guy by a second, otherwise you're about to give that place back.

but yes, the positioning of the two zones does take away from it. more so with each time we saw it even.

the frequency of it started to take away from the specialness of the maneuver so i can appreciate that it gives off mario kart vibes.

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Gary Anderson has proposed to test it's removal during a few races. I think that could be a good idea...

only two races, need to see how it applies to more tracks, and heres to hoping the new rule set continues to work...but i agree now may be the time to start the experiments necessary for its eventual removal.

some of the sprint race weekends may prove an insightful comparison opportunity?

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

some of the sprint race weekends may prove an insightful comparison opportunity?

That's every interesting suggestion. They could indeed use the sprint races to fine tune what amount of DRS effect gives the best racing.


Sainz also suggest possibly reducing the DRS effect a bit, because it perhaps is a bit too powerful now with the cars being able to follow closer:


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/2...clerc/9392246/


Carlos Sainz reckons, however, that maybe the effectiveness of DRS could be looked at – as the boost from it was quite strong in Saudi Arabia.
“Without DRS, it is almost impossible to overtake nowadays,” he said. “What it has improved is the predictability of the car in following and it's given us a much more predictable balance, and the ability to stay closer through the corners.
“But without those three or four tenths that DRS gives you in each straight, it would be impossible to pass - also because the slipstream is lower than last year.
“We might need to consider making the DRS effect a tiny bit lower though, just so we don't have the delta states that we see nowadays, that some overtakes are maybe a bit too easy.”

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Just throwing it out there - we're discussing how dangerous this track is. Yet Mick is fine. Seems to me like the car and track safety systems did their job...

Yes the drivers have highlighted this kerb may need to change, but it's worth noting that the kerbs are built to an FIA standard. There's a handful of different types (with some older ones being grand fathered in). This kerb type is in place in a lot of places. The cars have just changed. There will be issues found with compatibility of kerbs in many tracks.

He got a bit squirrely and brushed a kerb, and ended up having a 33G impact. The fact that he was OK after hospital tests is great news, but surely this is a serious concern.

The fact that the kerb was to "FIA Standard" must mean that such standards are possibly flawed considering that there is zero run off and a concrete wall. The kerbs at COTA for example with its ample run off perhaps should have a different standard to here where there is absolutely zero run off in many places.

Someone earlier in this thread called this a 1 in a million accident, but a F2 driver had a weekend ending crash at the same point too.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

...Seems to me like the car and track safety systems did their job...

its not that i think this is an unreasonable point, to a large extent i sort of kind of agree, but i do wonder what the ultimate extension of this philosophy would be.

is Jeddah the new standard for street circuits, 2nd generation Carsten(?) Tilke carrying on his father's work so is this venue indicative of the direction F1's favorite design firm has been instructed to move in, is this what every city with money will order now, will older tracks become boring as a result requiring Tilke designed 'danger' upgrades if they want to remain on the calendar?

all of this under the backdrop that purpose built tracks are not the cool thing anymore. pigeon hole a street circuit near the hotels and restaurants regardless of whether or not there is sufficient room is the order of the day.

so where do we draw the line regarding style over substance if its not at safety?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by steve_r

The fact that the kerb was to "FIA Standard" must mean that such standards are possibly flawed considering that there is zero run off and a concrete wall. The kerbs at COTA for example with its ample run off perhaps should have a different standard to here where there is absolutely zero run off in many places.

COTA does have different kerbs. There are multiple types of FIA kerbs.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by steve_r

He got a bit squirrely and brushed a kerb, and ended up having a 33G impact. The fact that he was OK after hospital tests is great news, but surely this is a serious concern.

The fact that the kerb was to "FIA Standard" must mean that such standards are possibly flawed considering that there is zero run off and a concrete wall. The kerbs at COTA for example with its ample run off perhaps should have a different standard to here where there is absolutely zero run off in many places.

Someone earlier in this thread called this a 1 in a million accident, but a F2 driver had a weekend ending crash at the same point too.

Any standard that allows the sausage kerbs we saw last year is deeply flawed.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by chunterer

And why on earth did the stewards slap Albon with that grid penal for Melbourne?

Stroll blatantly turned in on Alex when Alex was already there!!

I don't get the penalty either. Stroll knew he was there, as he didn't turn in at the apex. He left room, yet not enough. At the very least, it was six of one, half a dozen of the other and not worth a penalty.

[Akrapovic]

Meh I think the penalty is fine. Albon wasn't anywhere near far enough alongside to claim the apex. Had Stroll left zero room it'd have looked even worse.

[steve_r]

If it involved Hamilton or Verstappen, we would be on page 27 of the discussion by now and the freeze frames would be posted from every single angle.

Anyway, to me it looked like a late and optimistic dive down the inside by Albon, but he got well alongside before they touched. However, I do not know how anyone could have concluded that Stroll would have known that Albon was there.

I would have put it down as a racing incident with no penalty. I just about see why a penalty was given, but on balance I think that that a penalty was not needed in this instance. It's not clear cut either way though.

[S griffin]

It doesn’t matter who was involved, but thankfully we didn’t have a big discussion over it

It looked like Albon tried a move with 50/50 chance of success. He was either going to be a hero or a zero. Did Stroll know he was there? Hard to tell

Quite frankly I don’t think it was a dirty move by Albon, Stroll had the option to leave him room if he saw him coming. But I don’t think Albon should be penalised for it