[Official] Australian Grand Prix 2022: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 3

[steve_r]

Rather than talk about sample sizes and the like, instead perhaps listen to what Albon actually said about the hard tyre, and the fact he could drive each lap like a qualifier even deep into the very long stint.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Rather than talk about sample sizes and the like, instead perhaps listen to what Albon actually said about the hard tyre, and the fact he could drive each lap like a qualifier even deep into the very long stint.

I get that. The hard compound proved to be very durable on the Williams. It's more about the consideration of the C3 compound not having much more than 10 laps life.

The original comment was 'Is there a problem with the softer Pirelli rubber?'

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Alonso was in a train of six cars covered by less than 3.5 seconds from about lap 42, so it is impossible to know the true pace.

This is my thought. That it may be hard to do analysis without factoring in what was going on around that car at that time.

My general observation has been that for years we have felt the tires are not a good as they could be. That they have short lifespans built into their design. This is true for two reasons. We have seen other series produce tires that can last and also the fact that degradation as a design requirement is not a secret.

What the problem is... we have seen that the hard tire worked VERY well and it just made the others (who are maybe working closer to intention) look bad. Maybe they need to "fix" the hard tires by making them degrade faster.

Richard

[Tourer]

It IS possible that some work will need to be done on compounds and construction but they tyres are still very new to go with the cars that they are fitted to and the teams are still working out how to get all the bits functioning together.

I think more time is needed to really see what is needed - it may be that we see a different picture with tyres once teams work out how best to bring the tyres in or resolve their issues with chassis.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

To our International Viewers: I apologize if you have to endure our local TV Commentators, totally out of their depth, limelight wannabe's :-(

Thankfully the Ch10 coverage was only for Ch10 and not the world feed.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This is my thought. That it may be hard to do analysis without factoring in what was going on around that car at that time.

My general observation has been that for years we have felt the tires are not a good as they could be. That they have short lifespans built into their design. This is true for two reasons. We have seen other series produce tires that can last and also the fact that degradation as a design requirement is not a secret.

What the problem is... we have seen that the hard tire worked VERY well and it just made the others (who are maybe working closer to intention) look bad. Maybe they need to "fix" the hard tires by making them degrade faster.

Richard

Agreed.
I would also like to see the regulation that insists on two different compounds dropped so that anyone who wanted to run without a stop could do so, and anyone who wanted to do a one stop using the same compound both times could do so.....

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This is my thought. That it may be hard to do analysis without factoring in what was going on around that car at that time.

My general observation has been that for years we have felt the tires are not a good as they could be. That they have short lifespans built into their design. This is true for two reasons. We have seen other series produce tires that can last and also the fact that degradation as a design requirement is not a secret.

What the problem is... we have seen that the hard tire worked VERY well and it just made the others (who are maybe working closer to intention) look bad. Maybe they need to "fix" the hard tires by making them degrade faster.

Richard

Yes, I also think this is mostly true. I think F1 should prioritise on tires that a driver can push and fight close battle with and worry about a controlled drop off only after that is achieved. I mean, now that following is mostly fixed from an aero point of view, it's a pitty that the softer compounds don't seem able to keep up.

The tire behaviour in yesterdays race could perhaps be summarized as (percentage of how much of the total race laps the tire will last):

Hard: 115%, 105% pushed
Medium: 45%, 30% pushed, 0.6% faster?
Soft: 30%, 20% pushed, 0.6% faster still?

Whereas for interesting racing it rather should be something along the lines of:

Hard: 100%, 80% pushed
Medium: 65%, 50% pushed, 0.6% faster
Soft: 45%, 35% pushed, 0.6% faster still

Originally Posted by Tourer

It IS possible that some work will need to be done on compounds and construction but they tyres are still very new to go with the cars that they are fitted to and the teams are still working out how to get all the bits functioning together.

I think more time is needed to really see what is needed - it may be that we see a different picture with tyres once teams work out how best to bring the tyres in or resolve their issues with chassis.

Yes, I think that is true. The understanding of the tires in race conditions is still limited. Hopefully with better understanding, the teams will be able to set up the cars so that the softer compounds can handle being pushed hard, but the gap does seem wide.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Agreed.
I would also like to see the regulation that insists on two different compounds dropped so that anyone who wanted to run without a stop could do so, and anyone who wanted to do a one stop using the same compound both times could do so.....

I would not mind seeing the different compound requirement go either. I do think at this moment it would not yet be a good idea to then not enforce at least one pitstop. In many races with the softer tires seeming to drop of so quickly, in many races they possibly would all start on the hard tires and not stop. I mean, it refreshing to see a few guys attempt it, but if everyone does it, less so in my opinion. Once the situation around the softer compounds improves (either by teams understanding the tires or Pirelli making adjustments to the compounds), I wouldn't the pitstop requirement dropped as long as the softer compounds are competitive.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by PVDA

Thankfully the Ch10 coverage was only for Ch10 and not the world feed.

I thought the Richard Craill, Tom Clarkson and Mark Webber commentary was perfectly acceptable! Craill is the primary race caller on SBS Speedweek and does a good job there IMO.

Webber was, of course, trying to simplify things for people who don't watch Grand Prix racing regularly, which is fine. Some tune in only for the Melbourne Cup and don't know the nuances of horse racing either, for example.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Some tune in only for the Melbourne Cup and don't know the nuances of horse racing either, for example.

Hang on a minute - are you telling us that they race horses at the Melbourne Cup?

[Oldtony]

Hopefully Melbourne goes back to opening the season.
The setting sun plroblems were more noticeable in the prolonged Qually session than the race but the later time of the year stretching into April causes problems with light and with leaves on the course.
If it stays in April maybe the time of qually and the race will have to be brought forward to a less friendly time for Euro TV.
Lights are probably not a solution in Albert Park.
Mid March is the right time, but does that fit with the suggested pairing with Japan in the calendar.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Hopefully Melbourne goes back to opening the season.
The setting sun plroblems were more noticeable in the prolonged Qually session than the race but the later time of the year stretching into April causes problems with light and with leaves on the course.
If it stays in April maybe the time of qually and the race will have to be brought forward to a less friendly time for Euro TV.
Lights are probably not a solution in Albert Park.
Mid March is the right time, but does that fit with the suggested pairing with Japan in the calendar.

They want to go back to first race.I understand that is no longer guaranteed in the current contract and after the success of last weekend is probably not worth paying a premium for.
Where it ends up will be determined for 2023 and beyond by the calendar trying to fit in 4 Middle East races in a relatively narrow climatic window.For example when they looked at replacing Russia with Qatar this year they might have noticed that the average daily maximum temperature at that time of year is 40 degrees.
As someone who goes every year I am split.Daylight saving GP’s mean we get an extra 1 or 2 support classes but on the other hand I have no desire to still be at the track at 7pm.Also there have been 2 daylight saving GP’s that have finished in near darkness although that was largely fixed by moving the start time back from 5 to 4.

[S griffin]

I'm just glad Oz is back, it's been too long and seeing the big crowd shows how much it was missed.

[GTRMagic]

Bring back the Minardi 2 seaters! The sound is definitely missed

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Bring back the Minardi 2 seaters! The sound is definitely missed

The sound of passengers screaming?!

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I would not mind seeing the different compound requirement go either. I do think at this moment it would not yet be a good idea to then not enforce at least one pitstop. In many races with the softer tires seeming to drop of so quickly, in many races they possibly would all start on the hard tires and not stop. I mean, it refreshing to see a few guys attempt it, but if everyone does it, less so in my opinion. Once the situation around the softer compounds improves (either by teams understanding the tires or Pirelli making adjustments to the compounds), I wouldn't the pitstop requirement dropped as long as the softer compounds are competitive.

The whole idea of racing hard on softer tyres then stopping for a new set began over 25 years ago with Piquet and later Mike Schumacher did it expertly.
Now its become mandatory to have a stop to make the racing interesting!
Not having a mandatory stop may lead to more durable softs and mediums making the whole exercise of strategy far more interesting and when someone makes the set up choice then has to make it work really requires far more expertise in driving and in strategy.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The whole idea of racing hard on softer tyres then stopping for a new set began over 25 years ago with Piquet and later Mike Schumacher did it expertly.
Now its become mandatory to have a stop to make the racing interesting!
Not having a mandatory stop may lead to more durable softs and mediums making the whole exercise of strategy far more interesting and when someone makes the set up choice then has to make it work really requires far more expertise in driving and in strategy.

Or it might lead to dull processional races with absolutely everyone on the same strategy. Chewing gum tyres were requested by F1 to artificially spice up the racing (and to be frank it needed spicing up) - it is in the same category as DRS in that respect. Perhaps with these new regulations it can be re-investigated as to whether either are still necessary?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The whole idea of racing hard on softer tyres then stopping for a new set began over 25 years ago with Piquet and later Mike Schumacher did it expertly.
Now its become mandatory to have a stop to make the racing interesting!
Not having a mandatory stop may lead to more durable softs and mediums making the whole exercise of strategy far more interesting and when someone makes the set up choice then has to make it work really requires far more expertise in driving and in strategy.

Probably even before Piquet / Brabham. Cars stopped for tyres back in the fifties..... in fact IIRC Argentina 1958 and Moss won the race by NOT stopping for new tyres, a different strategy to other potential winners that did stop for new tyres and the no tyre stop strategy paid dividends for Moss on that day.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The whole idea of racing hard on softer tyres then stopping for a new set began over 25 years ago with Piquet and later Mike Schumacher did it expertly.
Now its become mandatory to have a stop to make the racing interesting!
Not having a mandatory stop may lead to more durable softs and mediums making the whole exercise of strategy far more interesting and when someone makes the set up choice then has to make it work really requires far more expertise in driving and in strategy.

In 1982 Brabham used a combination of soft tyres and mid-race refueling, in what they called "The Ploy''.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The whole idea of racing hard on softer tyres then stopping for a new set began over 25 years ago with Piquet and later Mike Schumacher did it expertly.
Now its become mandatory to have a stop to make the racing interesting!
Not having a mandatory stop may lead to more durable softs and mediums making the whole exercise of strategy far more interesting and when someone makes the set up choice then has to make it work really requires far more expertise in driving and in strategy.

Well as said before, to me personally the first priority is to have tires that can be pushed and raced hard. Second priority for me is that multiple tire strategies should be viable during a race. If those two conditions are fulfilled, I don't really care if they still want a mandatory stop or artificial drop off built into the tires. As long as they can be pushed and raced and there is some variation in strategy, it's all fine to me.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Well as said before, to me personally the first priority is to have tires that can be pushed and raced hard. Second priority for me is that multiple tire strategies should be viable during a race. If those two conditions are fulfilled, I don't really care if they still want a mandatory stop or artificial drop off built into the tires. As long as they can be pushed and raced and there is some variation in strategy, it's all fine to me.

But it will almost always be faster to drive gently on hard tyres for the entire race, rather than lose 45 seconds making two pitstops for soft tyres. Without refuelling (that gave much more laptime gain than tyre offsets), you'd have to push so hard on those soft tyres to make that 45 seconds back and make a soft tyre two-stop work against a no-stop driving conservatively on hard tyres.

Hence the compulsory pitstop / two compound rule and Pirelli being asked to make hard tyres (or all the tyres) that artificially drop off, in order to make multiple tyre strategies viable. I am curious as to what would happen if compulsory tyre stops in dry races were eliminated mind you.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

But it will almost always be faster to drive gently on hard tyres for the entire race, rather than lose 45 seconds making two pitstops for soft tyres. Without refuelling (that gave much more laptime gain than tyre offsets), you'd have to push so hard on those soft tyres to make that 45 seconds back and make a soft tyre two-stop work against a no-stop driving conservatively on hard tyres.

Hence the compulsory pitstop / two compound rule and Pirelli being asked to make hard tyres (or all the tyres) that artificially drop off, in order to make multiple tyre strategies viable. I am curious as to what would happen if compulsory tyre stops in dry races were eliminated mind you.

Yes, I think if you have good soft and medium compounds, the extra option and uncertainty of someone not stopping at all, only adds to the excitement of the race. You do indeed need solid medium and soft tires to keep it interesting though. A situation where the hards can make it to end with some nursing that are over the distance in theory a bit faster, is quite a good situation from a variety in strategy perspective. The theoretical time difference needs to be small though. Because going long on hards also has some drawbacks:


- You won't get off the line as well.
- Your tires will probably take a bit more time to heat up the first lap and after a SC.
- If you get into a fight and over push the tires to make it to the end you can't get rid of an abused set during an already planned stop. You than have to add another pitstop.


It also depends a lot on the the pit stop time loss. If it is short than, stopping (more often) hurts less. I also like a situation where not stopping on hards is very iffy, but then two SC periode's all of a sudden make it viable and the whole strategy picture gets turned upside down.



About the artificial drop off, to me it's okay if it is used to prevent teams from being tempted to overuse the duration of a softer compound and then risk not having enough thread left and the tire goes. There is always a lot of fuss when that happens. I don't like artificial drop-off to spice up the race.


P.S. We have a tire thread as well: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150119

[S griffin]

I think teams should be free to use what tyres they want, when they want. I'm sure we will still have pitstops though, but at least let them choose their own strategy. It would make it more interesting that way. The tyres compound should be different from each other, but they don't need a massive difference. Each has their own advantage and disadvantage

I do think they should get rid of this two compound per race rule. We have enough variables as it is. And not everyone will choose the same strategy. And there are downsides to pitting still. It's just not right to force teams to use a less preferable tyre, let them choose what they want

That's my 2 cents

[Tourer]

Pirelli struggling to find enough test days. Seemed relevant to the tyre discussion - will be the first tyre tests done with the current cars - we may well see some changes to the tyre construction as a result but hard for Pirelli to make changes that can be depended on without the testing and hard to do the testing with the crowded calendar these days.