Ferrari in 2023 boom or bust?

[AndreasDavour]

I think that the last thing Ferrari needs after trying to climb back up, is another Italian political mess at the top, with new people coming and going.


Binotto had his issues, but I think it was wrong to force him out. No, I don't think it was wholly his own idea to resign.


I say bust.

[billy bleach]

I can.see the 2023 press release already " 2023 will be a year of rebuilding"....

[V8 Fireworks]

I think Ferrari will be solidly in the top 3 of the WCC.

1st, 2nd or 3rd I would not care to predict as there are too many variables really! It obviously depends on how well Red Bull and Mercedes perform by comparison, assuming that these are very likely to be the top 3 WCC teams barring some revelation from the likes of Alpine or Aston Martin.

[S griffin]

Ferrari need a proper leader as team manager. Someone who can cope with the pressure and isn't afraid of making tough decisions. The problem is, who is that person?

[tocatrucky]

Thet have never filled the Jean Todt-shaped hole since he left. A decision-maker with definitive authority. I'd be looking at various Endurance-racing team bosses who can./could do it.

[AndreasDavour]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I think Ferrari will be solidly in the top 3 of the WCC.

1st, 2nd or 3rd I would not care to predict as there are too many variables really! It obviously depends on how well Red Bull and Mercedes perform by comparison, assuming that these are very likely to be the top 3 WCC teams barring some revelation from the likes of Alpine or Aston Martin.

I think you might be correct they will start strong, as Binotto's technical leadership will linger a bit longer. Then I suspect they will slide into a morass.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by tocatrucky

Thet have never filled the Jean Todt-shaped hole since he left. A decision-maker with definitive authority.

Sounds like Fred!

[Tourer]

Sorry to be "that" guy but I'm just wondering why we need a 2nd Ferrari thread? Posts are valid enough but would fit just as well in the "honey we need to talk...." topic on Ferrari wouldn't they?

[AndreasDavour]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Sorry to be "that" guy but I'm just wondering why we need a 2nd Ferrari thread? Posts are valid enough but would fit just as well in the "honey we need to talk...." topic on Ferrari wouldn't they?

I think that thread title might be a tad bit obscure, as I didn't get what it was about. This one is quite clear.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Sorry to be "that" guy but I'm just wondering why we need a 2nd Ferrari thread? Posts are valid enough but would fit just as well in the "honey we need to talk...." topic on Ferrari wouldn't they?

I agree. Maybe mods can merge? Maybe a more all encompassing title might help as well.

Richard

[P38 in workshop]

I don't think one man is capable of bringing about the change necessary to become consistent winners.This week we have had Gunther Steiner telling the world that the engine ought to be great,and he might be right,but the others haven't been sitting on their hands.Additionally,if we look back eleven months or so,Ferrari had a very strong package and proceeded to squander the advantage it gave them.Short of closing the whole place and moving it to somewhere between Milton Keynes and Reading its hard to see significant changes occurring.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I don't think one man is capable of bringing about the change necessary to become consistent winners.This week we have had Gunther Steiner telling the world that the engine ought to be great,and he might be right,but the others haven't been sitting on their hands.Additionally,if we look back eleven months or so,Ferrari had a very strong package and proceeded to squander the advantage it gave them.Short of closing the whole place and moving it to somewhere between Milton Keynes and Reading its hard to see significant changes occurring.

I am sure Ferrari have already drafted the Blah blah blah 2023 will be a year of consolidation and building....Leclerc must be spewing - where would he go? Audi is my bet

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I don't think one man is capable of bringing about the change necessary to become consistent winners.This week we have had Gunther Steiner telling the world that the engine ought to be great,and he might be right,but the others haven't been sitting on their hands.Additionally,if we look back eleven months or so,Ferrari had a very strong package and proceeded to squander the advantage it gave them.Short of closing the whole place and moving it to somewhere between Milton Keynes and Reading its hard to see significant changes occurring.

I don't think moving it to Reading would help any more than when the design office was moved to the UK.
The problems aren't on the shop floor in spite of Binotto's apparently ambivalent leadership.
He had a process in mind and was consolidating growth step by step.
Yes, there were apparent failures, but we don't really know what was going on.
There is no doubt he was protecting some individuals, but the heads will roll style isn't going to build a cohesive team.

As far as boom or bust is concerned I think 2023 will start with a competitive top three team's car but there will be a collapse three or four races in and morale will sag.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by AndreasDavour

I think that thread title might be a tad bit obscure, as I didn't get what it was about. This one is quite clear.

A quick read of the first few posts in the Ferrari thread makes it clear what the thread is about.

What is the intent for this thread in terms of a different subject?
Is this thread intended to be a discussion about the 2023 engine (as the title would suggest) or Italian politics (as the first post might suggest)?

[AndreasDavour]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I don't think moving it to Reading would help any more than when the design office was moved to the UK.
The problems aren't on the shop floor in spite of Binotto's apparently ambivalent leadership.
He had a process in mind and was consolidating growth step by step.
Yes, there were apparent failures, but we don't really know what was going on.
There is no doubt he was protecting some individuals, but the heads will roll style isn't going to build a cohesive team.

As far as boom or bust is concerned I think 2023 will start with a competitive top three team's car but there will be a collapse three or four races in and morale will sag.

This is kind in line with my thinking as well. Binotto actually had a development plan for the team, and the last few seasons they have been moving upwards. I think they will start strong and then flounder.

[AndreasDavour]

I don't want a long metaconversation. If the mods feel like merging the threads, go ahead. I personally felt a threat about how Ferrari will fare in the post-Binotto era might be fun. If that other thread encompass that, merge away.

[PhilipR]

I have raised this issue before - but deeper down than just top management - is Ferrari disadvantaged by the cost cap?

Majority of the know how and knowledge is in UK - so trying to hire competent staff from UK might come at a higher salary as it is a big change to move to a different country, especially if said employee has a family/well established life in UK. And as employee salaries are featured into the cost cap , Ferrari will be hurt on the car development side if they hire from UK(unless they can save money on catering - you never know :P)

Sometimes is a 2 way street - you need competent management but you also need the workforce to pull through and support management. Ferrari's issue could be lower down the ranking thus making it difficult for any team principal/manager to sort out this issue

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I don't think moving it to Reading would help any more than when the design office was moved to the UK.

That did work quite well! They were only set back when their star designer was lured to Benetton temporarily.

Naturally Barnard claims credit for laying the foundation for the successful series of Brawn-Bryne V10 cars with his original F310!

Regardless, during the intermediate slump when they were sans-Barnard, Ferrari felt that firing Alain Prost would help matters which was a curious view!

[steve_r]

So, Vasseur is in as team principal, from Alfa Romeo.

Unless he is given full power to shake things up, I do wonder whether anything will significantly improve.

[Greem]

Remind me - when was the last time a French chap was at the helm of the Scuderia?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Greem

Remind me - when was the last time a French chap was at the helm of the Scuderia?

And as a said in the other thread, he too came in as an outsider. So maybe this will work too.

[chillibowl]

is he an outsider tho? he comes with plenty of current F1 experience and from the Ferrari sister team.

i would suspect he is well versed in how to navigate the Ferrari political landscape.

have high hopes that this works leaving the big remaining question of how long will it take? he joins a better equipped Ferrari team then Todt had joined so hopefully that shortens the improvement time?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by S griffin

And as a said in the other thread, he too came in as an outsider. So maybe this will work too.

Tidy came “tooled up “ Brawn, Byrne, Stepney and later Schumacher. They were all one unit - one out all out so they where fire proof during the dark days. Vasseur is on his own apart from support from Leclerc

[AndreasDavour]

That did shake things up a bit didn't it? I don't know much about Vasseur, and while he is not Italian and comes from the outside, will he get the freedom to steer the team? I still think it's a bust for 2023, but maybe it wont be free fall in 2024 like I first expected.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Tidy came “tooled up “ Brawn, Byrne, Stepney and later Schumacher. They were all one unit - one out all out so they where fire proof during the dark days. Vasseur is on his own apart from support from Leclerc

Eh? Brawn and Byrne didn't come till a year after Schumi went there!