Driving standards/ stewarding

[greentrumpet]

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

No I didn't say your argument was simplistic, I was saying that dismissing the made argument for leaving room and how to so as simplistic, in itself is simplistic when looking at all the discussion we've already had in this thread. There is a difference of opinion however on how much control a driver has over racing situations in order to leave racing room ( or navigate the track). So to boil it down to one side's view as simplistic and the other side is not, is not really fair in my view. More on that below.

Who’s taking sides? I’m not taking sides! That is a simplistic view of a discussion

What it comes down to I think, is that we disagree here on the amount of control a driver has over his car and the situation and perhaps what was has been the cause of a collisions or leave not enough space in the past.

My opinion is that a drivers competitive nature is often much less flexible than the cars handling or the options that he has at his disposal. A driver also needs to be in control of his car when there is a wall on the outside and a competitors move requires him to take action to not run into the wall. Same applies if a driver goes to hot into a corner you can't exit it like you have done before. You will have to be less aggressive on the throttle to reduce your racing line radius on exit to compensate for the hot entry. Similarly, if you are on a trajectory that is not going to leave your competitor enough room you have to be less aggressive on your exit in order to leave room. In my opinion it is the competitive nature of the driver rather than limited options of the momentum and handling of his car, that often prevents a driver from doing so. If you like multiple corner battles rather than one corner affairs then more strict rules are needed to emphasize leaving room to compensate for this competitive nature.

I would even argue that your point actually enforces the leaving more racing room argument. If a driver has so little options to control his car in dynamic situations as you say, one could argue that it would be smart to make the rules such that sufficient margin is left on the table. This margin could be provided by stating rules that put more emphasis on leaving racing room rather than rules that reinforce and actually putt in writing the claiming the corner practise which as said encourages rushing to the apex, crashes and discourages leaving room.

If you don't, then the claimed limited driver control in combination with the claim the corner practise would be a recipe for continuos crashes.

It is a dynamic environment. These drivers are on the limit. The options of what you can do to the steering, brakes and throttle (etc.) is limited. That does not mean they are out of control! If this was on the road I would agree, but it is in the race track.

If someone puts their car in a place it isn’t always possible to leave room.

I do think that the art of racing isn’t just about how to overtake, but also how to be overtaken. And more racing room can be given.

But there are many many situations where this is not possible. They race on the limit.

And all I said was just being alongside is not a good indicator of anything. You can easily get alongside.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Who’s taking sides? I’m not taking sides! That is a simplistic view of a discussion

Ok, let's leave it at that.

It is a dynamic environment. These drivers are on the limit. The options of what you can do to the steering, brakes and throttle (etc.) is limited. That does not mean they are out of control! If this was on the road I would agree, but it is in the race track.

If someone puts their car in a place it isn’t always possible to leave room.

I do think that the art of racing isn’t just about how to overtake, but also how to be overtaken. And more racing room can be given.

But there are many many situations where this is not possible. They race on the limit.

And all I said was just being alongside is not a good indicator of anything. You can easily get alongside.

Indeed, but can you get alongside in a manner that leaves the other room as well? Also alongside does not mean you have passed. It merely means you managed to get next to the other car. The next straight or sequence of corners decides who eventually will get ahead enough to claim the position. Sounds like excellent racing to me.

Anyway, let's take the approach then that you describe two or three situations where you think the rule as proposed (Any car must leave another car room on track in any part of the corner if the other cars wheels are still in front of it's back wheels) would put drivers in an impossible position and I'll give my view on how both drivers should have handle it and how the stewards could've judged that situation based on that rule.

I'm not talking about three into two situations where a driver indeed can run out of options to leave room. However that can be accounted for in the rules.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

The issue with asphalt run offs - had there been gravel or a wall - Sainz might have been found at fault for squeezing Hamilton out with a dive bomb(ala Austria 2021) but since there is run-off and usually no damage will come of runnig wide or cutting corner - they are allowed to push someone wide. Comes down to inconsistency of what means to be outside the track

Indeed. I'm not 100% sure if there was not physically car width on the outside. I was very close. However to me it feels at 22s into the video it seemed Sainz steered a bit more straight then he could've and left Hamilton few other options. Just after that Sainz seemed to be able to steering more to the left and perhaps just leave enough room, but by that time Hamilton was already left no other trajectory than to go off track.

Also who had the idea of that sausage curb at that corner? If one gets pushed wide by another driver, you risk big damage to your car with little fault to you

Indeed again. I understand why they would want to place a sausage kerb somewhere in that chicane but the current position indeed leaves the outside car zero options.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Certainly I think Hamilton has tougher competition now, so getting the title back will be tough. I can see him calling quits at the end of next year or possibly even before

F1 is a 'team' sport, heavily dependent on the car, especially in this era.

No one gets anywhere near a regular top three unless the design and engineering is really good. Occasional circumstances make give a flip result but basically if you are not in one of the top four or five teams you are not fighting for a podium, hence the best of the rest 'midfield championship'....

So really it depends on the work done back in the workshop over the next four months. What appears in the pretesting will give you a good idea of how 2023 is going to go for Lewis Hamilton....

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Anyway, let's take the approach then that you describe two or three situations where you think the rule as proposed (Any car must leave another car room on track in any part of the corner if the other cars wheels are still in front of it's back wheels) would put drivers in an impossible position and I'll give my view on how both drivers should have handle it and how the stewards could've judged that situation based on that rule.

Adam43, I was wondering if you noticed my above proposal? It perhaps would be a way to take the discussion beyond what you considered simplistic.

[Richard C]

It's not F1, but as to talk about drivers not respecting yellow flag and especially not respecting double yellow flags, there was this incident in F2 at Monaco this past weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SFOEcKZlYk

Basically Victor Martins is running up the hill with SC indicator and yellow flags waving, he does eventually slow a bit, but slows VERY late given what is going on. He nearly hit a marshal. His penalty? Just a drive through.



So a slap on the wrist like that is why this type of behavior continues. I would black flag him from that race and give him an additional one race ban at a minimum. This was another Jules Bianchi style situation in which the Martins was extremely lucky it didn't go badly for someone due to his lack of judgement.

Richard

[Greem]

I almost spat my tea out when I saw a clip of that - sadly reminiscent of Maldonado all those years ago.

There was a comment on the TV commentary that I caught which I think said for F1, cars entering a double yellow zone must drop to the pit limit. I didn't catch whether that was just for yesterday though.

[NaBUru38]

Martins should be suspended for a few months.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Greem

There was a comment on the TV commentary that I caught which I think said for F1, cars entering a double yellow zone must drop to the pit limit. I didn't catch whether that was just for yesterday though.

May be not to the pit limit but "ready to stop" it what is said during any drivers' briefing.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Greem

There was a comment on the TV commentary that I caught which I think said for F1, cars entering a double yellow zone must drop to the pit limit. I didn't catch whether that was just for yesterday though.

I'm not sure it was the pit limt, but in VSC situations they were suggesting that on approach to the incident double waved yellows would be show and the cars were required to slow down from VSC speeds to something less... I don't think they actually said what. Then once passed the incident they were allowed to return to VSC speeds for the remainder of the lap.

I agree it wasn't made clear whether this is from now on or just being trialled at Monaco

Edit:

From the Monaco event's Race Directors Notes V2

3.2 Double waved: Any driver passing through a double waved yellow marshalling sector must reduce speed significantly and be prepared to change direction or stop. In order for the stewards to be satisfied that any such driver has complied with these requirements, it must be clear that he has not attempted to set a meaningful lap time. Furthermore, during qualifying any driver in a double yellow sector will have that lap time cancelled.
3.3 Double Waved during VSC or SC: Any driver passing through a double waved yellow marshalling sector during a VSC or SC, in addition to the requirements in 3.2 above, must remain negative of the SECU delta time in the sector concerned.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

May be not to the pit limit but "ready to stop" it what is said during any drivers' briefing.

'Ready to stop' has long been an abused term by drivers under yellow flags, often interpreting it as something like 'having a foot a few inches from a brake pedal'. Terrible driving by Martin's and I agree that a much harsher penalty is in order.

[S griffin]

People wonder why we have so many SCs for incidents and tbh it's probably due to the fact there are drivers who seem to not take slowing down under yellows too seriously, which pose danger to marshals. If drivers took more care under yellow flags we probably wouldn't need so many SCs

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

'Ready to stop' has long been an abused term by drivers under yellow flags, often interpreting it as something like 'having a foot a few inches from a brake pedal'. Terrible driving by Martin's and I agree that a much harsher penalty is in order.

As well as being abused, "ready to stop" is too vague. F1 cars already have a pitlane speed limiter which could be easily used for controlling speed under yellows and under the VSC. In the case of yellows I would suggest that drivers should be below the pitman speed limit from the point when they pass waved yellows. An alternative signal (I don't think stationary yellow would work) should be displayed at the preceding marshal post giving the drivers bit or warning and distance to reduce their speed (banging on the brakes in an unexpected place would just be introducing a new hazard).

No doubt people will protest that a VSC in particular at pitlane speed would cause the tyres to lose temperature. Well, tough! Drive accordingly and engineer the cars and tyres accordingly. Tyre blankets are being phased out anyway.