[Official] Italian Grand Prix

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Lots of people, many British, always seem to want to downplay Max’s talents when he is, in reality, absolute lightning.

I’ve had the privilege to watch and closely observe, amongst others, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Hamilton etc. and frankly I doubt any would beat Verstappen in the same car.

The first paragraph I agree 100% with. The second definitely not. But it's an opinion, so fair enough.

[Mike Harte]

I know that this should be in a fantasy thread, but I would be really interested to see some of the current, let's call them, top guns competing with Verstappen in Red Bulls but with those cars tailored to them. That would be different to just going one on one with cars that are suited to him.

[Gerard C]

Interesting indeed Mike. May be we could have a look to what is done team by team, forgetting for a minute the RB's. Because we all know that in a team of two drivers, each has his dedicated engineers/mechanics/pit screw/strategist, etc…

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I’ve had the privilege to watch and closely observe, amongst others, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Hamilton etc. and frankly I doubt any would beat Verstappen in the same car.

of course its difficult and subjective to compare drivers across eras like this but i agree that this is a really special thing that is happening with Max right now.

i guess what im really blown away with is just how few race day mistakes over this 10 race stretch Max has made.

would love to know what kind of data there is on this, but from outside looking in, Max on this current run of form seems to have made basically zero mistakes on race day. he looks to be driving both completely inside himself and outside of himself in a way and over a stretch of races that i dont think we have ever seen another f1 driver be able to string together like this before...and a few on these sorts of comparison lists would have had both the car and team mate advantage to attempt similar with.

so sure, cant easily compare across eras but to be honest im not entirely sure what we could compare this against? all things being equal there is a level of perfection going on here that is both without comparison and perhaps thus defies comparison?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The first paragraph I agree 100% with. The second definitely not. But it's an opinion, so fair enough.

In my opinion Senna was second to none in terms of ultimate speed and performance level. I have seen nothing since his passing in 1994 to alter my opinion of that.

I see no difference with the Max RB set up to what Hamilton had with Merc, Alonso had with Enstone and Ferrari, and Schumacher had with Enstone and then Ferrari.

The team is built around the lead driver.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I’ve had the privilege to watch and closely observe, amongst others, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Hamilton etc. and frankly I doubt any would beat Verstappen in the same car.

That may be the case - but it is an impossible statement to justify or disprove.

However, the same could be said that:

Frankly I doubt any would beat Hamilton in the W11.
Frankly I doubt any would beat Senna in the MP4/6.
Frankly I doubt any would beat Schumacher in the F2001/2002.

etc.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by chunterer

In my opinion Senna was second to none in terms of ultimate speed and performance level. I have seen nothing since his passing in 1994 to alter my opinion of that.

I see no difference with the Max RB set up to what Hamilton had with Merc, Alonso had with Enstone and Ferrari, and Schumacher had with Enstone and then Ferrari.

The team is built around the lead driver.

Of course it’s opinion. It is my first-hand experience though, and I didn’t mean it to be car related.

In my opinion I think that Verstappen is the best overall driver I’ve ever had the privilege to watch close up.

The pity is that too many people are missing out in that as they are consumed with the fanboy hysteria and the utter rubbish people like Ted Kravitz churn out without any real knowledge of what they are watching.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

That may be the case - but it is an impossible statement to justify or disprove.

However, the same could be said that:

Frankly I doubt any would beat Hamilton in the W11.
Frankly I doubt any would beat Senna in the MP4/6.
Frankly I doubt any would beat Schumacher in the F2001/2002.

etc.

See above. I think he would. He is simply a phenomenon.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chunterer

In my opinion Senna was second to none in terms of ultimate speed and performance level. I have seen nothing since his passing in 1994 to alter my opinion of that.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I agree totally.

Originally Posted by peebee2

In my opinion I think that Verstappen is the best overall driver I’ve ever had the privilege to watch close up.

The pity is that too many people are missing out in that as they are consumed with the fanboy hysteria and the utter rubbish people like Ted Kravitz churn out without any real knowledge of what they are watching.

And that's fair enough. Social media has a lot to answer for - the garbage that is trotted out daily, especially related to Max and Lewis is appalling - and sometimes even disturbing. I regularly wonder about the sanity of some of the idiots who post on FB and the like.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Social media has a lot to answer for - the garbage that is trotted out daily, especially related to Max and Lewis is appalling - and sometimes even disturbing. I regularly wonder about the sanity of some of the idiots who post on FB and the like.

Yep, it's like the wallies who just can't over the Brexit vote - it's history now and drives sane people mad.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Yep, it's like the wallies who just can't over the Brexit vote - it's history now and drives sane people mad.

Wow, what a generalisation that is!

However, the vote may be over, but the consequences of it are very far from over or history. For example, at least one supermarket are now sourcing some vegetables from New Zealand rather than Europe. All very good for increasing carbon miles on shopping!

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Wow, what a generalisation that is!

However, the vote may be over, but the consequences of it are very far from over or history. For example, at least one supermarket are now sourcing some vegetables from New Zealand rather than Europe. All very good for increasing carbon miles on shopping!

Maybe this is a subject I shouldn't have mentioned LOL.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Wow, what a generalisation that is!

However, the vote may be over, but the consequences of it are very far from over or history. For example, at least one supermarket are now sourcing some vegetables from New Zealand rather than Europe. All very good for increasing carbon miles on shopping!

It is over though. We went and did it, for better or for worse. The consequences were always going to be far-reaching....

Sorry, I didn't mean to continue the OT theme....

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Lots of people, many British, always seem to want to downplay Max’s talents when he is, in reality, absolute lightning.

I’ve had the privilege to watch and closely observe, amongst others, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Hamilton etc. and frankly I doubt any would beat Verstappen in the same car.

I think the most impressive thing about Max Verstappen is his consistency. I haven't seen any driver in history go for so long without having a single off-day or making a single significant mistake. I think it is possible that he could become greater than all those drivers mentioned in the future, but for now I am hesitant in saying so, simply because he has had it quite easy for the last few years and when naming great drives from Verstappen, his list doesn't come close to the likes of Hamilton, Schumacher and Senna. In 2021, Verstappen was definitely the best driver because he didn't make as many mistakes as Hamilton, but I can't really think of any examples of races Verstappen won when he really shouldn't have, he just always got the job done, whereas in Bahrain and Brazil, Hamilton put in really special drives. If Verstappen stops having a dominant car soon he might be able to put in some of these special drives of his own but until that happens I won't rate him quite as highly as the aforementioned drivers. In particular, I think the way that Ayrton Senna got the better of Alain Prost convincingly, despite Prost being considered potentially the greatest ever at the end of 1987, puts him a smidge above the rest in my book. But Verstappen is clearly a very special talent and he could be on that level.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i guess what im really blown away with is just how few race day mistakes over this 10 race stretch Max has made.

would love to know what kind of data there is on this, but from outside looking in, Max on this current run of form seems to have made basically zero mistakes on race day. he looks to be driving both completely inside himself and outside of himself in a way and over a stretch of races that i dont think we have ever seen another f1 driver be able to string together like this before...and a few on these sorts of comparison lists would have had both the car and team mate advantage to attempt similar with.

Max is clearly up there amongst the best of all time. However it is relatively easy to not make mistakes when you are not being challenged. At the moment Max has the benefit of

1. Talent
2. The best car
3. A team and car built around you
4. A teammate who can't match you (either because of item 1 or 3)

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Max is clearly up there amongst the best of all time. However it is relatively easy to not make mistakes when you are not being challenged. At the moment Max has the benefit of

1. Talent
2. The best car
3. A team and car built around you
4. A teammate who can't match you (either because of item 1 or 3)

I agree with you to an extent. However, Verstappen hasn't been unchallenged this year. I think Monaco, Silverstone and Zandvoort qualifying were all examples of things being very difficult for Verstappen and he delivered every time.

However, I think arguably the DRS is a factor as well. In Jeddah, Australia, Baku, Miami, Silverstone, Spa, Monza, he had to make his way past slower cars to get to the front, always doing it with simple DRS passes down the straights, so again he is not really being challenged there because the DRS is way too powerful. It means it is easy for him to recover any kind of problem at the start or in qualifying. If it was more difficult to do that, perhaps Verstappen would make more mistakes, as we saw in Singapore last year.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I agree with you to an extent. However, Verstappen hasn't been unchallenged this year. I think Monaco, Silverstone and Zandvoort qualifying were all examples of things being very difficult for Verstappen and he delivered every time.

However, I think arguably the DRS is a factor as well. In Jeddah, Australia, Baku, Miami, Silverstone, Spa, Monza, he had to make his way past slower cars to get to the front, always doing it with simple DRS passes down the straights, so again he is not really being challenged there because the DRS is way too powerful. It means it is easy for him to recover any kind of problem at the start or in qualifying. If it was more difficult to do that, perhaps Verstappen would make more mistakes, as we saw in Singapore last year.

I think that DRS is more than just a factor. It has been said that (somehow) DRS is far more effective on the Red Bull tan any other car which is another great advantage for Max.

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I think that DRS is more than just a factor. It has been said that (somehow) DRS is far more effective on the Red Bull tan any other car which is another great advantage for Max.

and yet Perez has the same DRS and cant cut through like Verstappen can...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

and yet Perez has the same DRS and cant cut through like Verstappen can...

Perez had been pretty good on that front . Monza maybe less so but generally speaking he has had far more cars to pass because of a crap qualy!

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Perez had been pretty good on that front . Monza maybe less so but generally speaking he has had far more cars to pass because of a crap qualy!

DRS has much less effect at such tracks, as they are running hardly any wing to start with.

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by peebee2

DRS has much less effect at such tracks, as they are running hardly any wing to start with.

Sure, and the other rounds where Perez has struggled in comparison?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Sure, and the other rounds where Perez has struggled in comparison?

I was referring to Chunterer’s point, which maybe you don’t agree with?

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I was referring to Chunterer’s point, which maybe you don’t agree with?

Im old, I have no idea what or who I agree with these days...

[Richard C]

Just a personal opinion, I tend to think Perez is actually pretty decent with working traffic to move forward. I seem to remember seeing him make aggressive and successful passes at times.

But... He is also in the best car, so it should be much easier for him to do that. He clearly is not Max and is not able to carve through the field in a way that Max can. So I would say overall not bad, but not showing the full potential of that car on a regular basis.

I can be a broken record as to my opinion as to what makes a driver "great". My opinion is that they first need to have the pure speed and ability to extract the most from a given car. But they also need to be very consistent. While everyone has a bad day, the number of their "bad days" should be much less than others. You make your own luck and also suck it up and use what you have. For me Perez has the same problem that a number of other drivers on the grid have. They can occasionally have great drives and then at the next race, be relatively pedestrian and have a significant negative gap to their teammate.

I am a firm believer in the "Peter Principle" and that it applies just about everywhere including F1 drivers. I would say that given how good the RB car is, Perez has risen to his "level of respective incompetence". He is performing much less than the car's performance level. The saving grace for him in the short term is that the even with him not performing much closer to Max (a very hard job), he is also outperforming everyone below him. That becomes more of a problem if/when other teams catch up with Red Bull.

Richard