[BTCC] Silverstone National, 23/24 September, Rds. 25/26/27

[Sodemo]

What was the reason Hill lost pace in race 2?

[Craner Curves]

I read all the thread here first, then watched the races. I can't see the problem with race 2. Fast cars with full hybrid and clever drivers came to the fore. When Butel decided to wipe out Patterson and shoved Ingram wide, that could have happened to Sutton. But they were both careful enough to not get knocked out by some of the midfield mayhem and progressed with some classy driving. Even though the most dubious safety car since Brands 04 helped them out. ?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What was the reason Hill lost pace in race 2?

I heard that it was in issue with the turbo.

**EDIT ** - from WSR: 'Jake looked set for a dry win of his own in Race Two; building a commanding lead before suffering an electrical misfire – caused by a failure of a control part – that dropped him to 12th.'

[psq43]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I heard that it was in issue with the turbo.

**EDIT ** - from WSR: 'Jake looked set for a dry win of his own in Race Two; building a commanding lead before suffering an electrical misfire – caused by a failure of a control part – that dropped him to 12th.'

Could be about right, given his in car footage once he started dropping back, featured a very noticeable vibration.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I heard that it was in issue with the turbo.

**EDIT ** - from WSR: 'Jake looked set for a dry win of his own in Race Two; building a commanding lead before suffering an electrical misfire – caused by a failure of a control part – that dropped him to 12th.'

When interviewed after the race, Hill commented that it was a re-occurring fault that they have had on and off all season, and, in his words, they had been unable to actually pinpoint the underlying cause of the problem. I will listen again to the interview because I didn't quite hear what he thought the problem was, but maybe it was a different cause this time?

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by stuart thompson

Should we just change Sutton’s name to Moses? I think he paid
Half the field off there didn’t he?

Somehow you can’t imagine many doing the same for Hill.

[Mike Harte]

As nothing has appeared in the Judicial Decisions concerning the potential/possible technical infringement concerning Turkington, whatever that could have been, it would therefore follow that the matter was resolved to the satisfaction of the relevant authority, whoever that might have been.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by stuart thompson

Should we just change Sutton’s name to Moses? I think he paid
Half the field off there didn’t he?

Realistically, what would the point be for holding up the two main drivers fighting for the championship. They probably know full well that they are not going to be able stop them till the end of the race and in all probability it will slow themselves up trying to defend the inevitable. And they probably have far more important battles to fight.

Let them go and then get on with their own race, because otherwise they may be accused of interfering with the results of the championship.

Fifty odd years ago, I had the pleasure and privilege of racing against one of the best drivers of that time, the great Gerry Marshall who became a good friend, and sometimes if he was behind me and I knew that he was quicker, I would let him get by without to much trouble. However, on the rare, and I do mean very rare, occasions that I knew that I was quicker than him, I left it up to him to work out if he could overtake.

It was what I would call mutual respect which never required the use of "paint swapping" or a "push to pass".

[thetool]

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by psq43

Could be about right, given his in car footage once he started dropping back, featured a very noticeable vibration.

My guess was it was either a damper or the prop-shaft (to cause that vibration). We have had props fail in the past on the BMW.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

My guess was it was either a damper or the prop-shaft (to cause that vibration). We have had props fail in the past on the BMW.

It's a boost sensor, causing a misfire.
This is a recurring problem for not only Hill but BMW as a whole, and Silverstone seems to be particularly prone to triggering it. Turkington has the same issue at Silverstone a few years ago.

[crmalcolm]

Ricky Collard (Speedworks Motorsport Toyota Corolla) was seventh ahead of Hill, who got up to eighth position with 10 laps remaining but then suffered a recurrence of the turbo boost sensor problem that ruined his second race, albeit not to as severe an extent.

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Ricky Collard (Speedworks Motorsport Toyota Corolla) was seventh ahead of Hill, who got up to eighth position with 10 laps remaining but then suffered a recurrence of the turbo boost sensor problem that ruined his second race, albeit not to as severe an extent.

Basically the same engine as BMW isn't it.

[tocatrucky]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Realistically, what would the point be for holding up the two main drivers fighting for the championship. They probably know full well that they are not going to be able stop them till the end of the race and in all probability it will slow themselves up trying to defend the inevitable. And they probably have far more important battles to fight.

Let them go and then get on with their own race, because otherwise they may be accused of interfering with the results of the championship.

Absolutely, in today's cut-throat tribal social media world, nobody wants to be responsible for interfering with a championship battle and the associated online fallout it'd cause.

Block hard and Sutton's fans would be baying for blood, equally jump out the way the the Ingram fans would be baying for blood. Ts an easier life to just not resist too hard and let them scrap it out between them up front. .

BTCC fans online are very special tribal folk as we all know.

[touringlegend]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

When interviewed after the race, Hill commented that it was a re-occurring fault that they have had on and off all season, and, in his words, they had been unable to actually pinpoint the underlying cause of the problem. I will listen again to the interview because I didn't quite hear what he thought the problem was, but maybe it was a different cause this time?

Am I going mad here or has one of the BMWs experience the same in a previous season.

I could swear I remember talk of WSR replacing an entire wiring loom in a car to solve the issue.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

Am I going mad here or has one of the BMWs experience the same in a previous season.

I could swear I remember talk of WSR replacing an entire wiring loom in a car to solve the issue.

Just found the segment, and it was the turbo booster sensor, as others have said. And this has affected Hill on a couple of occasions this season, as well as others in the past. The problem is that it is intermittent and difficult to isolate.

I seem to recall that Hill had this problem earlier this year during an early race; they thought that they had overcome it prior to the next race and I think that he joined from the pits, and it was fine. However, I think that the gremlin came back during the race.

If it also happened to Collard, then it would appear to be a common problem ob the Neil Brown (I think it is) engines. Is the sensor common to all engines or just the NB ones?

[Spanner monkey]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Just found the segment, and it was the turbo booster sensor, as others have said. And this has affected Hill on a couple of occasions this season, as well as others in the past. The problem is that it is intermittent and difficult to isolate.

I seem to recall that Hill had this problem earlier this year during an early race; they thought that they had overcome it prior to the next race and I think that he joined from the pits, and it was fine. However, I think that the gremlin came back during the race.

If it also happened to Collard, then it would appear to be a common problem ob the Neil Brown (I think it is) engines. Is the sensor common to all engines or just the NB ones?

In the NB Engines its a Bosch one exactly the same as the one TOCA supply to all the teams for their data logging. I assume M-sport and Mountune would use the same Bosch sensor aswell

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Did Hard start the year with Yazoo or did their sponsorship stop at the end of last year?

There are smaller Yazoo logos on at least a couple of them, the Butel & Thompson pairing it looks like.

[Sodemo]

When they BOP things like engine power, what are they measuring that against? Do they just put each engine on a dyno and make sure the power is equal, or do they take into account things like car aero drag? Reason I ask is that Hyundai looked rapid in a straight line at Silverstone.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

When they BOP things like engine power, what are they measuring that against? Do they just put each engine on a dyno and make sure the power is equal, or do they take into account things like car aero drag? Reason I ask is that Hyundai looked rapid in a straight line at Silverstone.

I don't know the answer to the BOP question; however, looking at the TSL sheets, in the dry for both Races 2 and 3, Ingram had the marginally faster car when time at section 2 and also across the line by tenths of MPH. Sutton was 4th.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

When they BOP things like engine power, what are they measuring that against? Do they just put each engine on a dyno and make sure the power is equal, or do they take into account things like car aero drag? Reason I ask is that Hyundai looked rapid in a straight line at Silverstone.

It's probably a misnomer to refer to it as 'BOP'. The intent is not to 'balance', but to provide competition between the cars.

At different tracks, this will be seen in different features. e.g. the Fords' strength is mid-corner speed. With only 4 corners at Silverstone, those strengths are not as rewarding.

To answer the question though - the engines are tested off-car initially, with certain parameters defined by the TOCA technical team (including boost, flow rate etc.). This then gives a benchmark against which future adjustments will be made.
Once in the car, the performance in comparison to other cars (based on more that just speed trap figures) is continually reviewed and amendments are issued if deemed necessary.

Drag is not taken into consideration directly, but the overall performance of the car, over a full lap, over multiple circuits is reviewed.

[thetool]

Every NGTC car goes through a wind tunnel assessment to determine it's aerodynamic profile. The total downforce produced, and the balance of this downforce between front and rear, is standardised across all NGTC cars.

Here's a summary of one of the tests carried out, in 2013 on WSR's new NGTC BMW 125i:

https://www.tocatechnical.co.uk/wpsy...ts-17.1.13.pdf

I'm not sure if BARC (TOCA) are aware that this document is publically available, but it's indexed by Google so not exactly hard to find.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by thetool

Every NGTC car goes through a wind tunnel assessment to determine it's aerodynamic profile. The total downforce produced, and the balance of this downforce between front and rear, is standardised across all NGTC cars.

Here's a summary of one of the tests carried out, in 2013 on WSR's new NGTC BMW 125i:

https://www.tocatechnical.co.uk/wpsy...ts-17.1.13.pdf

I'm not sure if BARC (TOCA) are aware that this document is publically available, but it's indexed by Google so not exactly hard to find.

Isn't that test just relating to the rear aerofoil and its relationship to the car ?