Andretti F1 - 2025

[Ferrari333SP]

Here we go!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fi...5-26/10527930/

[Richard C]

As expected, over the first and easiest hurdle. The real issue is getting FOM to agree.

Richard

[chillibowl]

so they are in (if they settle the commercial side that is) for the 2025 season or for the 2026 season?

the headline lists it as 2025-26 which i take to mean they can start work in 2025 but the first time we will see them on the grid will be for the 2026 season opener?

anyways congrats to them. as suggested a long way to go still but ultimately happy the opportunity is going to a proper racing concern.

[Richard C]

My take on the 2025 vs. 2026 years as listed in that article (and I assume via FIA) is that they can join the current technical regulations and also the current Concorde agreement with them joining in 2025. Or the next spec in 2026 and the next Concorde agreement (not yet negotiated). I wonder if this was done on purpose to give them two chances to get in.

As the current teams are not happy with the $200M anti-dilution value (which I think is part of the current Concorde agreement) they may push for Andretti to enter in 2026 in which the anti-dilution value would be negotiated upwards. Who knows, maybe they will rethink the entire process on the commercial side for what it takes for a new entry. But this allows for Andretti to find a way to make it work for 2025 and if not then try again in 2026 and probably be a signatory of the new 2026 Concorde agreement (along with most likely some hefty sum of money or whatever other hoops are placed in their way)

It may make more sense for them to enter in 2025 due to commercial reasons. On the technical side, it makes more sense to join in 2026 as they would not need to make a one year only 2025 car as it will be a new technical spec for 2026.

Richard

[Tourer]

Over the first hurdle with the final hurdle to come for entry acceptance. If that happens then all the real (& much bigger) hurdles present themselves - designing, building and racing a competitive F1 car.

If Andretti does get in, will be interesting to see what approach it takes to personnel - poach from existing teams or develop its own (or a bit of both).

Still plenty more to come and we may not see them in action until 2026 if it is all approved, so plenty of speculation time ahead!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Over the first hurdle with the final hurdle to come for entry acceptance. If that happens then all the real (& much bigger) hurdles present themselves - designing, building and racing a competitive F1 car.

Well getting a "competitive" car is a massive challenge (depending upon your definition of competitive... for a win or just not embarrassingly bad!)

I think the real next hurdle would be to just show up and be ready for testing/first race with a working car that passes inspection! No need to pull a USF1 faceplant! But if I think they make it to their first race, they should be somewhat golden in that they are a functioning team and in an elite group. Even if it doesn't work out, they can sell the team (entry) for lots of money!

Originally Posted by Tourer

If Andretti does get in, will be interesting to see what approach it takes to personnel - poach from existing teams or develop its own (or a bit of both).

I expect both? Given gardening leave timelines they may be limited as to who they poach and how quickly they can actually contribute. Out of the box, they probably should start initially with something much like Haas in that they buy as much as they can vs. trying to build everything solo.

Originally Posted by Tourer

Still plenty more to come and we may not see them in action until 2026 if it is all approved, so plenty of speculation time ahead!

For sure!

Richard

[S griffin]

Let’s see if they can actually do it now the FIA have accepted them. There’s more to being competitive than having a famous name. Of course we have to see if they can build the car in time too for 2025 and get the right personal

Btw I feel USF1 would have been a great addition to the grid, even if they never became competitive, but of course it never happened

[peebee2]

They’re a long, long way from being in as yet.

And if they were to get in I’d suspect they’ll find it hard to recruit too many decent people from within F1.

[Sandgroper]

Plenty of spare drivers around

[GTRMagic]

There is still time to buy Aston Martin F1

[steve_r]

No doubt many of the current self serving teams will do all they can to prevent this happening.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by peebee2

They’re a long, long way from being in as yet.

And if they were to get in I’d suspect they’ll find it hard to recruit too many decent people from within F1.

Cause no one mid team engineering wants to one day be in charge and show what they can do at a smaller team, that's NEVER happened before in F1 history.


dude, every time you talk it's just too easy to prove the exact opposite is history or actually what happens

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Cause no one mid team engineering wants to one day be in charge and show what they can do at a smaller team, that's NEVER happened before in F1 history.


dude, every time you talk it's just too easy to prove the exact opposite is history or actually what happens

mate, every time you talk it's just to easy to see that you have never been near a professional paddock in your life.

Believe it or not, the idea is not popular in the paddock in general.

[veeten]

As for possible drivers, one would certainly fit their needs...

Daniel Riccardo..

As for the #2 driver, well that's anyone's guess...

[Richard C]

I don't see Andretti pulling any "top" engineering or management talent. Andretti would be in startup mode and frankly may be a decade before they move out of the midfield if they survive at all. There is only room for one at the top and someone has to be at the bottom (WCC finishing order).

Those who are next level down in the pecking order who feel they have no or slow upward mobility opportunities may switch. Sometimes being the big fish in a small pond is the way to move your career forward. It is an opportunity to show leadership.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Believe it or not, the idea is not popular in the paddock in general.

I have no doubt the F1 watercooler talk is down on Andretti. And probably anyone who might not follow that same paddock party line knows to keep their mouth shut. So I say this only maybe a little jokingly, but...

If you are considering a move to a new job within a small tight knit community in which everyone knows everyone, the first thing you don't do is convince all other qualified candidates that they also should apply for that same job.

But as I point out above, moving to Andretti right now is not high on many people's "dream job" list. So broadly speaking I mostly, but not 100% agree with you.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

There are some interesting views coming from inside F1.

Gunther Steiner - 'You've got 10 very good teams or good teams, they're all stable. Why should we change something if it works like this? At the moment, we are in a good place. [...] The dilution fund was set a few years ago, when the value of Formula 1 was different. I think one of the things will be, should we readjust it to current market rate, which is a lot more than that one?'


Zak Brown responds - 'I’ve found some Formula 1 teams are very short-sighted in their view on not taking a longer-range view of what are things that can grow the sport, and they kind of think about the here and now,” he said earlier this year. Unfortunately, I’m not surprised some of our competitors are quite short-sighted in their thinking.'

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I have no doubt the F1 watercooler talk is down on Andretti. And probably anyone who might not follow that same paddock party line knows to keep their mouth shut. So I say this only maybe a little jokingly, but...

If you are considering a move to a new job within a small tight knit community in which everyone knows everyone, the first thing you don't do is convince all other qualified candidates that they also should apply for that same job.

But as I point out above, moving to Andretti right now is not high on many people's "dream job" list. So broadly speaking I mostly, but not 100% agree with you.

Richard

When you think of the endless nightmare Sauber have in persuading talent to work from Switzerland, the idea of moving to the US is nonsense.

There are many reasons why 8 of the 10 current teams are effectively based in England.

Maybe Andretti would set up a shop in the UK, although spending God knows how much on a new US factory maybe makes me doubt they think that.

Although I still think the odds are against them entering an eleventh team anyway.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Gunther Steiner - 'You've got 10 very good teams or good teams, they're all stable. Why should we change something if it works like this? At the moment, we are in a good place. [...] The dilution fund was set a few years ago, when the value of Formula 1 was different. I think one of the things will be, should we readjust it to current market rate, which is a lot more than that one?'

so essentially the new team needs to come in for 2025 and/or before the new concord agreement comes into effect and massively increases the buy-in/franchise/anti-dilution fee?

i have to wonder whether or not the issue is really about a new team or if its about delaying the new team into 2026 or later with the aim of securing a much larger future buy in amount?

these rumours of Renault pulling their engine deal could speak to tactics of delay?

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Zak Brown responds - 'I’ve found some Formula 1 teams are very short-sighted in their view on not taking a longer-range view of what are things that can grow the sport, and they kind of think about the here and now,” he said earlier this year. Unfortunately, I’m not surprised some of our competitors are quite short-sighted in their thinking.'

as a fan, i am always skeptical when they talk about 'growing the sport'!

cynical on my part, but thats usually code for 'my subscription fee is about to go up because look how they've grown the sport!'

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

When you think of the endless nightmare Sauber have in persuading talent to work from Switzerland, the idea of moving to the US is nonsense.

There are many reasons why 8 of the 10 current teams are effectively based in England.

Maybe Andretti would set up a shop in the UK, although spending God knows how much on a new US factory maybe makes me doubt they think that.

Although I still think the odds are against them entering an eleventh team anyway.

Andretti is swimming upstream on a few different fronts. First new team vs. purchasing an existing one. The location issue as you say. They say they will be based in the US, but with a support location in the UK. I agree with you that this will create recruiting challenges. Existing staff in the UK (especially those with deep roots such as children in school, etc.) may have little interest in relocating. Conversely, it may bring in some new blood from the US that may not have much interest in moving to the UK. Not saying that balances things out, but I do think it is true. At the end of the day I would love to see them make it work just to see if it add something new.

And, what is so interesting about that "new" thing is that the teams and FOM keep calling out that a new team needs to bring something special to the table. What is not special about a new team located in a different part of the world. For good or bad, F1 has become this small island of incestous co-habitation all within a stone throws away from each other in central England. Why does the sport advocate for more of the same?

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

There are some interesting views coming from inside F1.

Gunther Steiner - 'You've got 10 very good teams or good teams, they're all stable. Why should we change something if it works like this? At the moment, we are in a good place. [...] The dilution fund was set a few years ago, when the value of Formula 1 was different. I think one of the things will be, should we readjust it to current market rate, which is a lot more than that one?'

What is glorious about Steiner's comment is that he effectively is saying Haas shouldn't have been brought in earlier. There is no reason why his argument couldn't be applied to them as well. Just change the date.

The anti-dilution fee is mostly another topic. What is interesting is that the teams live and breath by the Concorde agreement. So the the parts they love are considered sacred while those they don't like are considered negotiable or even non-applicable. Maybe at the time they signed it, they should have baked in some adjustments to that fee based upon overall value of the teams vs. a fixed amount. Granted, I think there is some vague wording about protecting value of teams or something, but that can be worked out if FOM desires to put in the effort and make the pie larger.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

so essentially the new team needs to come in for 2025 and/or before the new concord agreement comes into effect and massively increases the buy-in/franchise/anti-dilution fee?

i have to wonder whether or not the issue is really about a new team or if its about delaying the new team into 2026 or later with the aim of securing a much larger future buy in amount?

these rumours of Renault pulling their engine deal could speak to tactics of delay?

I call this 2025 vs. 2026 issue above. I believe that is exactly what is going on. That if Andretti comes in as part of 2026 (and no doubt with larger fees) the teams will all of a sudden welcome them with open arms.

I have heard the Renault rumor. No clue if it is true or not.

Richard

[Richard C]

Related to all of this is the question of the details of the 2026 Concorde agreement. I am speculating here, but I generally think that both FIA and FOM would like to get the 2026 technical specifications complete before the FOM moves onto the 2026+ Concorde Agreement negotiations. At the same time, with teams like Audi coming on board for 2026 as a manufacture, I suspect there are some "agreement in principle" as to what things will look like in 2026+ from a team perspective (including things like revenue sharing). So it's probably not like they are starting from scratch with respect to the next agreement.

As I mention earlier in this thread in ways there is a real advantage for Andretti to join in 2026 vs. 2025. If they join in 2025 they have to produce and race a one year only spec. While if they join in 2026, they can focus on that new technical spec and not worry about the prior/current one. It also gives them more runway to enter once/if they are approved and this also helps if they do manage to recruit any senior staff as it may help with respect to gardening leave requirements (i.e., enough time for staff to go on leave and enough time for them to actually contribute toward the Andretti car).

The downside is that no doubt the other teams are going to say they will not sign a new 2026 agreement unless the workflow and compensation (i.e. anti-dilution) structure is significantly restructured. With that fee being much higher than the $200M USD as it is today. I think I have even seen someone suggest it be $1B USD? Maybe that is just a negotiating tactic. Anyhow, the point is that it no doubt will be more expensive if they join in 2026 vs. 2025. And that assumes 2025 is even doable given the pressure from existing teams.

Plus, from Andretti's perspective, if the 2026 Concorde agreement really isn't negotiated until lets say mid 2025, then they would be in limbo for a good year plus. And even then with no real guarantee for a positive resolution or path forward for them in 2026. If FOM really wants to grow the number of teams and if Andretti really wants to join up, if I were Andretti I would try to work with FOM and the teams to work a binding agreement now for some a guaranteed entry in 2026. It no doubt would be a fee much larger than $200M, but it would remove them from limbo.

Another wrinkle is who knows what the value of the teams will be in 2026. For all we know there could be an economic downturn that reduces their values, or the opposite could happen. So it would be beneficial to set values now, determine what everyone can agree to regarding financial compensation, get that compensation started now (based upon current valuations), but have a guaranteed entry for Andretti in 2026.

I realize this is a big ask and would take lots of work to make happen. Not to mention potentially very expensive for Andretti.

Richard

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by peebee2

They’re a long, long way from being in as yet.

And if they were to get in I’d suspect they’ll find it hard to recruit too many decent people from within F1.

I do have reliable anecdotal comments regarding both the entry of BAR and the three 2009 grid fillers that tells me several people were moving on and it brought joy to the teams they were leaving.More than one meeting contained the phrase "We wouldn't stand in your way after what you've done here". Which actually meant "thank goodness we don't have to search for a reason to get rid of you"....


It took a while for BAR to find out which of their recruits this applied to and then they made progress.Look at them now.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I do have reliable anecdotal comments regarding both the entry of BAR and the three 2009 grid fillers that tells me several people were moving on and it brought joy to the teams they were leaving.More than one meeting contained the phrase "We wouldn't stand in your way after what you've done here". Which actually meant "thank goodness we don't have to search for a reason to get rid of you"....


It took a while for BAR to find out which of their recruits this applied to and then they made progress.Look at them now.

Its an age old story. I expect everyone has had someone that they worked with. Was knowledgeable about the industry in question, could talk a good game, maybe had been involved in it for years. They always thought they were God's gift, but they were an idiot and most everyone but them knew it.

Richard

[Adam43]

Imagine moving to the US for a job. Madness.