Successor to the Camaro after it is gone?

[GreenMachine]

In that scenario, have someone build a spec engine, supplied by ballot to teams, for a full spec tube chassis/suspension/mechanicals.

Entrant to supply the body kit with homologated aero kit (ie the full body is homologated to predetermined targets (drag, front lift, rear lift, whatever else is considered important).

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Supercars' strength also lies in cars being really unique, there's no other championship in the world that races such cars.

Which is why we all loved the Kazakhstan Touring Car Championship, which was run exclusively with Trabants.

A wooden-headed, steel-handled axe would be similarly unique, but not really terribly useful.

GT4 has at least as much market-relevance as Supercars, it has manufacturer support; what it doesn't feature is a privileged position for the existing established combatants, although as professional racing outfits, one would expect them to come to terms with the cars quicker than the well-heeled gentleman-type owners.

[chunterer]

Ok then replace my idea of sedan and coupes on GT3s with GT4 versions.
It doesn't matter whst the regs are as long as the depth and variety can be improved.

[Casper]

The problem has a few different aspects to it.

Obtaining permission to use the body is the first because I can't see any manufacturer doing that and allowing a different driveline to be used. Manufacturers are now removing V8 drivelines and going to V6/hybrid which presents major issues for a series that depended on a common motor as was seen in 2023. Not having parity in the driveline blows the whole class ethos out of the water.

Losing the NA V8 will not go down well with the fan base.

The industry and the market are moving away from ICE and sedans which again presents more issues because the fan base will not be driving the same style of car that are racing and the old "my Commodore beat your Falcon" is gone but that has happened already to some extent and the fan base has already fallen.

The whole world wide car racing industry that is production based and not part of the racing dedicated cars such as open wheelers will have to change and getting fans to adopt to that will be very interesting. NASCAR for has a huge problem that presents similar issues to SC.

Denying that the problems don't exist and won't impact SC is head in the sand stuff and those with skin in the game had better get their skates on because they have a very limited amount of time to come up with something that appeals to us who are used to how things were in the past.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Casper

The problem has a few different aspects to it.

Obtaining permission to use the body is the first because I can't see any manufacturer doing that and allowing a different driveline to be used.

The BTCC regs allows exactly that.

Sports Sedans must be a field day for lawyers.

The only time I can recall this being an issue was when manufacturers of bodies for speedway cars marketed the bodies as Camaros or Mustangs. This was solved with the proper licensing in place.

[Casper]

A look at the NASCAR problem and the thinking of where the future lies. Note the reference to hybrids which was part of their thinking when designing the current generation car.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2023/11...amaro-is-dead/

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

Losing the NA V8 will not go down well with the fan base.

Yet the championship coped fine with the loss of the superior V12 engine of the Jaguar XJS?

Indeed, Cadillac survived replacing their "standard of the world" V16 with a cost-engineered V8, and still mostly use cheaper V8s to this day!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

In that scenario, have someone build a spec engine, supplied by ballot to teams, for a full spec tube chassis/suspension/mechanicals.

Entrant to supply the body kit with homologated aero kit (ie the full body is homologated to predetermined targets (drag, front lift, rear lift, whatever else is considered important).

Isn't this exactly the same as what they have now (except with two engines instead of one)?

Originally Posted by Matt K

So I still prefer having two models on the grid in Supercars than watch many different GT3 cars.

I absolutely do not prefer that, especially when Gen 3 took away any remaining variety of different headers and different engine sounds from team to team.

It's so much better to hear the wailing flat-six Porsches and the V10 Audis and so on and so forth. Cars that not just sound different, but look different and are genuinely different underneath (engines in the front, middle and back!). Just as it was good to see the variety of cars in Group C & Group A (if dominated by Ford Sierras somewhat in later years, though the gloriously loud aforementioned Jaguar XJSes are still amongst the Sierras in historics!).

Having a lack of driver aids is correct for Gen 3, but having different wheelbases and different types of engines (with BOP instead of parity) is absolutely crucial to avoid a series of Americana of Detroit coupes only.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I absolutely do not prefer that, especially when Gen 3 took away any remaining variety of different headers and different engine sounds from team to team.

It's so much better to hear the wailing flat-six Porsches and the V10 Audis and so on and so forth. Cars that not just sound different, but look different and are genuinely different underneath (engines in the front, middle and back!). Just as it was good to see the variety of cars in Group C & Group A (if dominated by Ford Sierras somewhat in later years, though the gloriously loud aforementioned Jaguar XJSes are still amongst the Sierras in historics!).

Having a lack of driver aids is correct for Gen 3, but having different wheelbases and different types of engines (with BOP instead of parity) is absolutely crucial to avoid a series of Americana of Detroit coupes only.

Then perhaps stop bothering about Supercars and watch DTM or Australian GT rather than thinking constantly about why there's no Nissan Z and BMW in Supercars. Neither of them will be there I guess.
Don't get me wrong, two models on the grid is far from ideal but on the other hand Supercars have been all about two models for more than 20 years now (well, ok, a few seasons with Nissan, Merc and Volvo an exception). It's part of it. For me motorsport is more than just excitement about different models and engines being on the grid. Sure, I'd be really happy if there were at least 4 different brands in Supercars but it's not going to happen.
Having said that, Supercars using GT3 cars would be a lot worse than what you call the Americana series of Detroit coupes.

[Casper]

I am not sure which is the bigger problem, the car or the motor/driveline which in the retail market is moving to electric/hybrid power. The BTCC has obviously decided the motor is the biggest issue but then they are years further down that track than we are. I am always surprised that there has not been more discussion surrounding the changes that will happen world wide or specifically for us in Australia.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Then perhaps stop bothering about Supercars and watch DTM or Australian GT rather than thinking constantly about why there's no Nissan Z and BMW in Supercars.

This, of course, is its own problem. The standard call of 'if you don't like it don't watch it' doesn't work when people decide actually they won't watch it and the audience disappears.

[FIRE]

From reading this forum I understand factory involvement is important for the series and fans. One of the two cars will be no longer produced after 2024. IMO that's a worrying situation.

[Casper]

The series was based on a "tribal" ethos when we had both manufacturers building cars in Oz, that has long gone, GM are no longer interested and it is inevitable that the Ford Mustang is going to get the chop in the near future, certainly before 2030 if the legislation in the US does not change. As pointed out by GreenMachine these cars are silhouette not production based so any body could get used if it can be licensed. The driveline is another issue altogether as is the fan base voting with their feet and buying BEV or Hybrid vehicles in increasing numbers with V8 engined vehicles being removed from the market place by all manufacturers. ICE vehicles new car sales are scheduled to stop in Europe mid 1930's or earlier and you can be confident that all manufacturers have begun market planning already to phase out ICE so development has now stopped.

Will manufacturers license extinct body shapes for racing, that is the question. Will exemptions be allowed to continue use of ICE power units, another good question not yet answered or even pondered I would guess. The whole world wide motor racing question seems to have been ignored with only a few notable exceptions such as FE.

[GreenMachine]

Traditionally here, maybe word-wide, off-road use gets pretty much total freedom from road rules. In time, the social license for (petrol) ICE use ANYWHERE is going to diminish to zero, especially where it conflicts with on-road regulation. Taxation of one sort or another is also going to be used to drive/accelerate the transition out of ICE probably starting towards the end of this decade.

The writing is on the wall in big glowing letters for V8s, and only a little more dimly for any ICE. ICE may have its life extended though hybrid powertrains, but that is only a stay of execution.

The world is changing kiddies, we don't have to like it, but we are not going to stop it just because we get a kick out of a V8 (or a GT3 Ferrari) at full noise up Mountain Straight. You can put your head in the sand, pretend it is all a bad dream and it will be back to normal when you wake up, grasp at conspiracy theories, whatever, but the arc of history is bending away from where we would like it to be.

'Enjoy it while it lasts' is the best we can look forward to.

[Casper]

NASCAR having an early look at the future?....maybe! At least the management acknowledges the changes that are coming and doing something about it.

https://carbuzz.com/news/leaked-nasc...n-electric-suv

https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2...orsport/page-3

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Casper

NASCAR having an early look at the future?....maybe! At least the management acknowledges the changes that are coming and doing something about it.

https://carbuzz.com/news/leaked-nasc...n-electric-suv

https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2...orsport/page-3

Although i've not read the articles, GM may well not get involved in any immediate or medium term EV category changes either in NASCAR or elsewhere as they have already cut back EV production due to low demand in the States.
It would be unlikeky to jump on board an EV motorsport programme requiring huge investment that is at odds with their mainstream vehicle campaigns.
Whilst the SUV element is a possibility it seems to me their preference is to continue with ICE, presumably hybrid, or maybe sustainable fuels.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Although i've not read the articles, GM may well not get involved in any immediate or medium term EV category changes either in NASCAR or elsewhere as they have already cut back EV production due to low demand in the States.
It would be unlikeky to jump on board an EV motorsport programme requiring huge investment that is at odds with their mainstream vehicle campaigns.
Whilst the SUV element is a possibility it seems to me their preference is to continue with ICE, presumably hybrid, or maybe sustainable fuels.

Read the articles and don't get to hung up on them. NASCAR have shown they see changes ahead and they are looking at what the possibilities are unlike SC who have not managed to accept the concept at all and appeared to be totally ignoring the facts staring them in the face. No one is saying that any specific idea is the way forward, they are just exploring what may be viable alternatives when the ICE is not mainstream any longer.

[mountainstar]

ICE ain't going away anytime soon. The whole EV market is collapsing, because in the end the math didn't add up and never will add up.