[Official] Austrian Grand Prix 2024

[steve_r]

Points differences are irrelevant, as unless he falls off his push bike and breaks a leg, Verstappen will be WDC no matter what others do.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Media reports are that the pit-wall failed to inform Verstappen about the Norris penalty.

Oops.


They are usually sharp as a tack.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Points differences are irrelevant, as unless he falls off his push bike and breaks a leg, Verstappen will be WDC no matter what others do.

There are also poor race results and DNFs. Verstappen has had one of each so far and come Silverstone, the 2024 season will be half way through. A lot can happen between then and the chequered flag at Abu Dhabi.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think unfortunately, Max never learned the lessons of years past. If he drives like a jackass then there are usually consequences to that. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

You are not the only one that thinks the same; saying that because his past actions weren't seriously dealt with in the past, he still thinks that he can get away with his antics. From Autosport/Motorsport: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/v...2021/10630267/

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

You are not the only one that thinks the same; saying that because his past actions weren't seriously dealt with in the past, he still thinks that he can get away with his antics. From Autosport/Motorsport: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/v...2021/10630267/

Lets assume the comments regarding Max are accurate. I would suggest that it might not be surprising. Because given the recent dominance of Max and Red Bull, he hasn't been challenged and therefore has had no (or fewer) opportunities to have that level of pressure applied to him and for him to act differently than before.

Richard

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Lets assume the comments regarding Max are accurate. I would suggest that it might not be surprising. Because given the recent dominance of Max and Red Bull, he hasn't been challenged and therefore has had no (or fewer) opportunities to have that level of pressure applied to him and for him to act differently than before.

Richard

Yes, that’s very true. He hasn’t been challenged enough to expose his dark side. Although there were still hints of it, like Vegas last year

[Tourer]

I'm going to go out on a limb here re the Max & Lando show.

Most of the great champions have a dark side, an utterly ruthless streak, an obnoxious side to their emotional make up. It's part of what makes them champions - the belief that they are better, the drive to succeed at the expense of all else, the simple approach that winning is the only thing that matters, regardless of how it is achieved.

We've seen it in Hamilton, Vettel, Schumacher, Senna and others - and now we're seeing it in Max. I don't believe that it ever went away, just that he wasn't challenged enough to bring it out. No question he's one of the greats but also no question that the dark side is going to show itself from time to time - I also suspect that having his dad quacking in the background ramps it up a bit.

I also think that turn 3 in Austria leads to many clumsy, or marginal overtaking moves. Time and time again over the years, we've seen cars clash there, run wide, get a pass done only to go too deep under brakes etc. etc. It seems that overtaking cars have to risk much more there and put themselves (to an extent) at the mercy of those they are trying to pass - regardless of whether they are bombing up the inside or having a crack on the outside.

Combine the dark side of a champion with the corner and we got what we got. It also appeared that turn 3 was Lando's only realistic passing spot on Max, so we were almost guaranteed some fireworks.

None of it is particularly attractive but I wasn't surprised as it all went down.

[chillibowl]

After that start in Spain and now Austria, I suspect Lando will also take another step in this direction. He needs to decide if he’s there to make friends or win chips…if he hasent decided already.

They grow up fast!

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Most of the great champions have a dark side, an utterly ruthless streak, an obnoxious side to their emotional make up. It's part of what makes them champions - the belief that they are better, the drive to succeed at the expense of all else, the simple approach that winning is the only thing that matters, regardless of how it is achieved.

We've seen it in Hamilton, Vettel, Schumacher, Senna and others - and now we're seeing it in Max. I don't believe that it ever went away, just that he wasn't challenged enough to bring it out. No question he's one of the greats but also no question that the dark side is going to show itself from time to time - I also suspect that having his dad quacking in the background ramps it up a bit.

I do agree, though I don't think I would include Hamilton and Vettel in your grouping. In his early F1 career Verstappen was entirely beyond the pale and was getting away with it. More recently we've not seen this unpleasant characteristics (much) and I was naively thinking that he has matured. Sadly it was just the availability of a dominant car that has made his unsavoury driving style superfluous. Now it's back.

Moving on to the penalty, it seems to me that the system of delivering penalties for causing a collision are too inflexible. If a 10 second penalty doesn't change a driver's position because he has more than a 10 second lead over the next car, I don't have a problem with that. He has earned that lead. However I think it's iniquitous that the transgressor goes home with more championship points than his victim. In my view, if the collision causes the retirement of the victim-car, the penalty should be at least demotion to 11th place, and possibly disqualification.

I believe wheels are now a single-source item in F1, and it looks like they may be a little too fragile. Verstappen and Norris bumped rear wheels and both immediately punctured, presumably due to their rims being broken. Surely single-sourcing means that there is no need to push the limits of strength/reliability/durability in the search for ultimate performance.

Finally (sorry for going on a bit): Perez. His performances this year have frankly looked pretty pathetic. In one way I could sympathise with him. Apparently his deficit to Verstappen averages 0.3 sec, which in some years would have put him one or two places behind; a solid number two driver. But in 2024 everything is so tight that it relegates him to the lower reaches of the top ten. So sadly in 2024 Checo doesn't cut the mustard as a Formula 1 driver.

[Akrapovic]

I agree with Trapeze. There aren't many drivers whose standards have been so out there that they caused rule books to be rewritten. Vettel and Hamilton are not part of that group. Max is.

Norris was penalised for track limits - despite losing time and giving the place back. Max then received a similar penalty, but for making contact with another car in a delibrate fashion.

Last race, drivers were given rather harsh penalties for things like jump starts where the car barely moved, whilst Stroll and Leclerc made deliberate contact with other cars during practice and received absolutely nothing.

We now appear to have a consistent ruling from the stewards, where actions where deliberate contact is made is not treated as a major event compared to the events around it.

[peebee2]

The stewards don’t typically rule on track limits though, so you can’t really compare their decisions to those automatic penalties.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Finally (sorry for going on a bit): Perez. His performances this year have frankly looked pretty pathetic. In one way I could sympathise with him. Apparently his deficit to Verstappen averages 0.3 sec, which in some years would have put him one or two places behind; a solid number two driver. But in 2024 everything is so tight that it relegates him to the lower reaches of the top ten. So sadly in 2024 Checo doesn't cut the mustard as a Formula 1 driver.

I agreed with everything you said but not this.
Just because everything is so tight in 2024 that doesn't mean Perez doesn't cut the mustard as a F1 driver.
Other drivers may be 3/10ths down on their teammates and you are not excluding them from being adequate F1 drivers. Stroll has outqualified Fernando several times this year or finished ahead, does that mean Fernando doesn't cut the mustard as a F1 driver? Of course not.

The convergence of multiple makes of vehicle simply makes the contest far more interesting and competitive, but it is inaccurate to suggest that a driver no longer cuts the mustard on the basis of a result, especially when the team mentions issues like floor damage and broken bits with aerodynamic influence (because the whole issue of relative efficiency is built around aerodynamics).

Perez has defeated Verstappen on occasions in the past. We don't know all the ins and outs of the data and circumstances surrounding each problem on the day, nor the issues in set up, but teams do know, and they offered him another contract.
Obviously, they want him to support Verstappen more closely, as Horner has said, but that doesn't mean he 'doesn't cut the mustard' as a F1 driver.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I do agree, though I don't think I would include Hamilton and Vettel in your grouping.

We'll agree to disagree - although I think that Mark Webber might have some sympathy for my view on Vettel and of course Max & Nico would have some sympathy for my view on Hamilton. The champions do all definitely have a dark side but the depth of it can vary for sure.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

We'll agree to disagree - although I think that Mark Webber might have some sympathy for my view on Vettel and of course Max & Nico would have some sympathy for my view on Hamilton. The champions do all definitely have a dark side but the depth of it can vary for sure.

I was thinking the same about Vettel (Multi21?). I also think you can't paint all champions with the same brush, but you have to fight to be a champion, so I tend to agree it is different levels. But I was thinking about Button. I can't remember one way or another if there have been examples of this trait in him? I would love to hear someone provide examples I am probably forgetting.

Richard

[Tourer]

There have been champions such as Button or JYS who certainly didn't have an obvious dark side but who no doubt had deep reserves of determination, drive and self-belief. Jimmy Clark is probably the most stand out example of that kind of champion.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I agreed with everything you said but not this.
Just because everything is so tight in 2024 that doesn't mean Perez doesn't cut the mustard as a F1 driver.
Other drivers may be 3/10ths down on their teammates and you are not excluding them from being adequate F1 drivers. Stroll has outqualified Fernando several times this year or finished ahead, does that mean Fernando doesn't cut the mustard as a F1 driver? Of course not.

The convergence of multiple makes of vehicle simply makes the contest far more interesting and competitive, but it is inaccurate to suggest that a driver no longer cuts the mustard on the basis of a result, especially when the team mentions issues like floor damage and broken bits with aerodynamic influence (because the whole issue of relative efficiency is built around aerodynamics).

Perez has defeated Verstappen on occasions in the past. We don't know all the ins and outs of the data and circumstances surrounding each problem on the day, nor the issues in set up, but teams do know, and they offered him another contract.
Obviously, they want him to support Verstappen more closely, as Horner has said, but that doesn't mean he 'doesn't cut the mustard' as a F1 driver.

I think we've got another "agree to disagree" here, but I think you are mis-reading what I said. I'm not suggesting that Perez isn't up to the job "on the basis of a result" but on the basis of all results in 2024 and many in 2023 too. And yes, Perez has defeated Verstappen on occasions in the past, but my point is that that was in the past.

I didn't mention other drivers, but now you raise the subject:
Stroll: Most of the time I would be inclined to say he doesn't cut the mustard but every so often he pops in a good result. I don't think he would still be in F1 if his dad didn't own the team, but he does have occasional flashes of adequacy.
Riciardo: He is way down on his performances when he was at Red Bull, but he does now seem to be recovering a little. I can't see him returning to Red Bull though.
Sargent: I'm surprised he has lasted as long as he has at Williams and I would definitely put him in the "doesn't cut the mustard" category. Ironically, he did better in Austria than I recall him ever doing before.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I think we've got another "agree to disagree" here, but I think you are mis-reading what I said. I'm not suggesting that Perez isn't up to the job "on the basis of a result" but on the basis of all results in 2024 and many in 2023 too. And yes, Perez has defeated Verstappen on occasions in the past, but my point is that that was in the past.

I didn't mention other drivers, but now you raise the subject:
Stroll: Most of the time I would be inclined to say he doesn't cut the mustard but every so often he pops in a good result. I don't think he would still be in F1 if his dad didn't own the team, but he does have occasional flashes of adequacy.
Riciardo: He is way down on his performances when he was at Red Bull, but he does now seem to be recovering a little. I can't see him returning to Red Bull though.
Sargent: I'm surprised he has lasted as long as he has at Williams and I would definitely put him in the "doesn't cut the mustard" category. Ironically, he did better in Austria than I recall him ever doing before.

I would back you on Ricciardo and Sargent. Sargent hasn't lived up to any of the mild promise he showed in F2 and was probably promoted too early, but even then, hasn't shown anything like what a F1 regular should show as a driver. Zhou has, as have Albon, Mags and you couldn't argue that Hulk doesn't deserve a seat.

Ricciardo is nothing like what he was at Red Bull and Renault.

I think he thought he would handle Lando easily, but Lando had other plans.
And since McLaren his race performances have been spasmodic.
The lack of consistency is either organizing himself head wise. or just lacking something in inner drive. Maybe he's had it too easy or it came to him too easily and he just doesn't understand how he needs to apply himself.

No one could ever argue Hamilton wasn't self-disciplined enough to apply himself to his craft, but Daniel is definitely lack something within his motivation.

The late Reg Parnell once said that Chris Amon had brilliant speed, but it seemed to come to him too easily. People couldn't believe how unlucky someone with so much natural ability could be so unlucky, but Parnell felt Amon wasn't self-disciplined enough in organizing his personal life and his personal world.
The result was that someone Clark and Stewart feared as a competitor never fulfilled his promise. I think Daniel is a bit like that.

And Stroll?
For me the decision is still floating. He does have some real ability, but it needs deeper commitment if he is ever going to be all that he could be. There is still time, but his ship won't wait forever.
And in F1 time waits for no one.

[P38 in workshop]

I have a slightly different view about Perez;I don't think he has lost ability,rather I believe the current Red Bull isn't easy to extract maximum performance from and while Max can apply all of his considerable ability to get the best from if,Checo doesn't have the same resource to draw on.In previous years the cars didn't need to be pushed so hard and they still led the pack.


I've never been entirely convinced by Danny Ric and believe the promise that he showed in his Red Bull days was in part due to the car suiting his driving style,certainly no car he has driven since has shown him to be outstanding.


Sargent seems to be a latter day Scott Speed and I suspect he may go on to have a lengthy career in a different series.


Stroll ought to have some kind of performance potential after so much preparation on the way up.Just think what a driver with natural ability could have achieved with that kind of racing education.

[Teretonga]

Here's a view about Max and Lando after Austria from a Max interview at Silverstone.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-ve...ls-softer-side

Max is human, not a machine, after all?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Here's a view about Max and Lando after Austria from a Max interview at Silverstone.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-ve...ls-softer-side

Max is human, not a machine, after all?

If he made a mistake, I would have more sympathy, but he didn't. He just deliberately drove into someone and quite frankly that has no place in F1. There's a fine line between being aggressive and being unsporting. Max has crossed that line quite a bit