2024 Brazilian Grand Prix Weekend

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

How about:

1) When a red flag is shown race control takes the gaps between cars at the prvious timing sector - if you change tyres during red flag they add 15-20 seconds to your time and slot you where that would have put you at the last timing sector before the red flag (obviously a bit controversial if the red flag came after a safety car)

2) You are allowed to change tyres during red flag but it does not count as your 1 mandatory tyre change. So you still need to do another pit stop if you have not done it before the red flag

Still not perfect but might make it less random

I like 2, as it effectively stops the red flag from being turned into a free mandatory tyre stop.

[chillibowl]

by no means was it a certainty (none of us can see the future) but we have seen before drivers urging on action by race control through their radio messages (so and so went over the line or in this case there is too much water on the track) and when you combine that with most everyone running long on the inters as the first pit stop window was open and with conditions seemingly getting worse...

imo its a fairly a short step from there to everyone was anticipating a S/C or red flag (there had already been like 4 or 5 during quali that morning) and clearly thinking about getting in a free or cheap stop in, and/or how that might actually lead to the race being stopped at the half way mark...

of course this doesnt amount to it being a certainty, nothing can, but watching the race live a stoppage very much looked like the inevitable outcome in those moments imo.

i further question Mclaren pitting at the same time as GR when the overcut option looked to be a better hedge against the very real possibility of an imminent S/C red flag call...i would think that this is why the pitwall dismissed Norris' earlier suggestion to go for an undercut because they knew waiting a few laps made sense given the probabilities at play...but then they just decided to cover. perhaps nerves at that point?

hindsight of course and we will never know what any of the teams' data centres/race simulation teams were predicating at that moment?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Actully it would have been the opposite. All behind Ocon, Ver and Gasly would have been ok as they have already changed tyre before the red flag. Only the front 3 would have had to pit again after the race resumed to meet the mandatory pit to change tyre rule.

Or alternatively add 20 seconds to their race time at the time of the stopage and have them start in the position this would have put them if they chose to change tyres under the red flag.

races that start on inters or wets or a red flag restart requiring inters or wets negates the two compound rule no? rules changes would lead to more rule changes and will only lead to more unintended consequences imo.

such as, its hard to imagine any scenario in todays day and age where FOM/FIA/race control is going to accept the (legal and moral) risk of drivers going out on old cold tires because they know the potential consequences of that...a free tire change is the lesser of two evils really...plus its the sensible and simplest thing to do right?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

such as, its hard to imagine any scenario in todays day and age where FOM/FIA/race control is going to accept the (legal and moral) risk of drivers going out on old cold tires because they know the potential consequences of that...a free tire change is the lesser of two evils really...plus its the sensible and simplest thing to do right?

Let them put warmers on the existing tires if there are concerns about cold tires. Nothing stops a team today from putting on scrubbed or used tires if they are low on their allocation. Teams regularly allow drivers to continue on track with battle damage.

Nobody is making teams use old tires. I think most of these suggestions allow teams to change tires "if they want or need to do so". But with some type of penalty that would be ideally equivalent to the impact of a pitstop.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

imo its a fairly a short step from there to everyone was anticipating a S/C or red flag (there had already been like 4 or 5 during quali that morning) and clearly thinking about getting in a free or cheap stop in, and/or how that might actually lead to the race being stopped at the half way mark...

of course this doesnt amount to it being a certainty, nothing can, but watching the race live a stoppage very much looked like the inevitable outcome in those moments imo.

Absolutely spot on. It was extremely clear that unlike the lottery numbers, this was fast becoming a statistical probability. All of the data was pointing towards a stoppage -

- multiple red flags that morning, and in the support series
- extremely heavy rain at the time
- worn old tyres
- multiple rookies on circuit
- wet tyres not really being much use
- F1 loves to try and avoid heavy heavy rain running

This wasn't predicting a one in a million event, nor does it take hindsight to work out that a red flag was extremely likely. Additionally, with nobody of significance having completed their stops at that point, there was no strategical advantage to George and Lando pitting. If they had stayed out and there was no red then they lose no real time as nobody had pitted. If there was a red then they lose track position.

This is, once again, F1 engineers not looking out the window and working purely from a spreadsheet of data. Data says it would be the optimum point to change to new inters at that point, so they do it. Completely ignores what's happening on track.

Whilst we're on this topic, I was lucky enough to have travelled around with the British GT paddock for the majority of 2025, and spend a lot of time with engineers in the garages. At Donington the weather was 'changable' to say the least. There was a lot of engineers looking at radars and data trying to work out what was going on. I was standing at the back of the garage, with a view out the back door - I could see the sky over the Melbourne Hairpin from my position. It was clearly pouring down less than half a km from the circuit, and approaching. Meanwhile the engineers are buried in the spreadsheet trying to work out what tyres to choose. A Optimum McLaren mechanic was standing with me and we were gesturing to look at the sky - it was clear what was about to happen. An engineer eventually did and made the call to switch. Sure enough, massive downpour, many cars off, because they made the call a lap late. But it was obvious to anyone not looking at a graph.

That's how I feel George and Landos decisions were made. Nobody was watching the race and everyone was buried in data.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This is, once again, F1 engineers not looking out the window and working purely from a spreadsheet of data. Data says it would be the optimum point to change to new inters at that point, so they do it. Completely ignores what's happening on track.





That's how I feel George and Landos decisions were made. Nobody was watching the race and everyone was buried in data.

Both of these. Sometimes leaning back from the screens and the old hand out the window technique is most accurate. But I want 90% of the data from the cars back to the paddock cut. Let the driver feel the car. Yes I get it they're very very advanced and that will have its own issues but are they any worse than things now can be at their worst? And the sheer amount of carbon needed to run all that kit would easily persuade every boardroom it's a "positive thing" for marketing guys to use

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

by no means was it a certainty (none of us can see the future) but we have seen before drivers urging on action by race control through their radio messages (so and so went over the line or in this case there is too much water on the track) and when you combine that with most everyone running long on the inters as the first pit stop window was open and with conditions seemingly getting worse...

imo its a fairly a short step from there to everyone was anticipating a S/C or red flag (there had already been like 4 or 5 during quali that morning) and clearly thinking about getting in a free or cheap stop in, and/or how that might actually lead to the race being stopped at the half way mark...

of course this doesnt amount to it being a certainty, nothing can, but watching the race live a stoppage very much looked like the inevitable outcome in those moments imo.


i further question Mclaren pitting at the same time as GR when the overcut option looked to be a better hedge against the very real possibility of an imminent S/C red flag call...i would think that this is why the pitwall dismissed Norris' earlier suggestion to go for an undercut because they knew waiting a few laps made sense given the probabilities at play...but then they just decided to cover. perhaps nerves at that point?

hindsight of course and we will never know what any of the teams' data centres/race simulation teams were predicating at that moment?

Statistically it was a very high probability given the number of red flags that morning. But it really is gambling on the statistical likelihood of a red flag and trying to time it by judging what is going on on the track.

Stella is adamant that the decision was the right one in terms of the wear, the difficulties the drivers were having, and the increasing level of the heaviness of the rain (so you might have figured you would need full wets rather than intermediates, rather than a safety car).

We got a safety car rather than expecting people to pit for full wets (and then the question why?), then Colapinto's shunt.followed by a red flag.

Going back over the race driver and team decisions and being critical in hindsight on not gambling on a red flag is a nonsense.
In any proper competition the outcome should never be gambling on getting a twenty-thirty second advantage over an issue that defies common sense on safety.
On the restart Norris had someone cross from his right to his left right in front of him while under brakes probably taking away a significant amount of downforce. An incident that may have led to him going wide.


Max won by twenty seconds, the length of a tire stop, despite putting in a dozen fastest laps over the final 20 laps.
So, there wasn't that much in it and while his drive was great it was because of the result that he is being (rightly) lauded.

And while drive brilliantly the result was underscored by the advantage of the red flag and free tire change.
Alpine probably wouldn't have been on the podium but for the advantage of the tire change.
And if you knocked 20 seconds of all those who waited for the red flag and added it to their times you would probably get a better idea of what the real order might have been'

But that's just another little game people can play.
It doesn't change the real result.
We got a really chaotic but highly entertaining race that gave us something to talk about. We can task for much more.

But being critical of the teams in hindsight isn't valid.
What would be the comments if Colapinto had been seriously injured or others had had a major accident and been injured by staying out and waiting?
The conversation would be very different.

[Akrapovic]

People keep saying its easy to make the call in hindsight, as if it wasn't being made before the red flag by multiple people in different areas, unrelated to each other.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

People keep saying its easy to make the call in hindsight, as if it wasn't being made before the red flag by multiple people in different areas, unrelated to each other.

That is true.
But it is still being speculative and gambling on an artificial advantage than dealing with the conditions and determining a flow in the event that depended on competing on the road.

[Plantagenet]

Originally Posted by Richard C

1. What what Stroll thinking by trying to drive through the gravel vs. paved road? That has to be one of the dumbest things I have seen in an long time.

Richard made the point earlier in the thread, but it's sort of been overshadowed with everything else in this crazy/brilliant race.

For Stroll to spin on the warm up lap is pretty poor form, to then sort get away with it (despite hitting the wall) but to drive into the gravel trap is bordering on satire.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

In any proper competition the outcome should never be gambling on getting a twenty-thirty second advantage over an issue that defies common sense on safety.

Expecting a red flag while driving around in torrential rain on worn intermediates seems to me like a self-fulfilling expectation. If the red flag stoppage had a strict parc ferme, they would have all been in for fresh tyres before it happened. And then there would not have been a top three who just lucked in.

[A20 YBP]

Am I the only one finding it funny that we only celebrate second and first place because we're so used to Max being first? I mean, it's still very impressive from the Alpine Renault team to get second and third, but it just seems funny to me

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Expecting a red flag while driving around in torrential rain on worn intermediates seems to me like a self-fulfilling expectation. If the red flag stoppage had a strict parc ferme, they would have all been in for fresh tyres before it happened. And then there would not have been a top three who just lucked in.

I would totally agree.
The only reason they remained out was in the hope that the race would be called before they slithered off then they could come in to get the 'free' tyre.

To me that makes a mockery of the result, not because its bad sportsmanship but because of the media, both social media and otherwise, who spend hours dissecting the result or fans who use the result to rubbish and malign people who they say 'made a stupid call', without any understanding of who, when, or what the circumstances were.
I focused on the call because people maligned the drivers who came in to change tires, but the rule that allows them to restart after a tyre change completely throws the previous race strategies out the window.

You might get an entertaining result, but it is not representative of where the real race was before the red flag.