500 GP past champs ?

[Lazy Boy]

Does anyone out there have a book about GP racing with all the past champions?

I was trying to remember them all and can only remember well back to when K. Roberts went over to Europe for the 77 season.

This is what I remember... (I'm going to try back to 1970)

...500cc Champ's...
Doohan .....5
Roberts.....3
Lawson......3
Rainey......3
Spencer.....1 or 2
Schwantz....1
Roberts Jr..1
Criville......1
Gardner.....1
Uncini.......1
Lucchinelli..1
Sheene......2
Agostini....3 or 4

That covers about 27 of the 31 from '70' to '00'
Does anybody feel like filling in the holes or correcting.?
Or do you know of an online source?

[Rossifumi]

Well you asked for it here it goes:

1949 Leslie Graham(GBR) AJS
1950 Umberto Masetti(ita) Gilera
1951 Geoff Duke(GBR) Norton
1952 Umberto Masetti(ita) Gilera
1953 Geoff Duke(GBR) Gilera
1954 Geoff Duke(GBR) Gilera
1955 Geoff Duke(GBR) Gilera
1956 John Surtees(GBR) MV-Agusta
1957 Libero Liberati(ita) Gilera
1958 John Surtees(GBR) MV-Agusta
1959 John Surtees(GBR) MV-Agusta
1960 John Surtees(GBR) MV-Agusta
1961 Gary Hocking(ZIM) MV-Agusta
1962 Mike Hailwood(GBR) MV-Agusta
1963 Mike Hailwood(GBR) MV-Agusta
1964 Mike Hailwood(GBR) MV-Agusta
1965 Mike Hailwood(GBR) MV-Agusta
1966 Giacomo Agostini(ITA) MV-Agusta
1967 Giacomo Agostini(ITA) MV-Agusta
1968 Giacomo Agostini(ITA) MV-Agusta
1969 Giacomo Agostini(ITA) MV-Agusta
1970 Giacomo Agostini(ITA) MV-Agusta
1971 Giacomo Agostini(ITA) MV-Agusta
1972 Giacomo Agostini(ITA) MV-Agusta
1973 Phil Read(GBR) MV-Agusta
1974 Phil Read(GBR) MV-Agusta
1975 Giacomo Agostini(ITA) Yamaha
1976 Barry Sheene(GBR) Suzuki
1977 Barry Sheene(GBR) Suzuki
1978 Kenny Roberts(USA) Yamaha
1979 Kenny Roberts(USA) Yamaha
1980 Kenny Roberts(USA) Yamaha
1981 Marco Lucchinelli(ITA) Suzuki
1982 Franco Uncini(ITA) Suzuki
1983 Freddie Spencer(USA) Honda
1984 Eddie Lawson(USA) Yamaha
1985 Freddie Spencer(USA) Honda
1986 Eddie Lawson(USA) Yamaha
1987 Wayne Gardner(AUS) Honda
1988 Eddie Lawson(USA) Yamaha
1989 Eddie Lawson(USA) Honda
1990 Wayne Rainey(USA) Yamaha
1991 Wayne Rainey(USA) Yamaha
1992 Wayne Rainey(USA) Yamaha
1993 Kevin Schwantz(USA) Suzuki
1994 Michael Doohan(AUS) Honda
1995 Michael Doohan(AUS) Honda
1996 Michael Doohan(AUS) Honda
1997 Michael Doohan(AUS) Honda
1998 Michael Doohan(AUS) Honda
1999 Alex Criville(ESP) Honda
2000 Kenny Roberts jr.(USA) Suzuki

I hope this answers your question!

[Lazy Boy]

Woo Hooo... ain't the internet great?
Ask and ye shall recieve.

Looks like the big hole in my memory was Brit
Phil Read with 2 Champ's
And Lawson had 4 not 3
Agostini 4
Spencer 2

This all started when somebody saw
Philip Island and started talking
up the Italians and how great they were.
So I was trying to recall them all.
Not really many Italian champs.
I don't really count Agostini
because as I heard it he had way better
bikes than anyone else for a while.
That may be wrong.

Thank you

[elephino]

As can be obviously seen, the MV-Agustas ruled the road for a long while, but Agostini was still an excellent rider and would have won if the bike wasn't so dominant.

It's interesting to note how often a rider has won consecutive championships. It really doesn't happen too often in other world championships.

[Airhead]

Eliphino,

I good point, in that the number of seasons one rider has dominated. In the MV-Augusta years the bike was dominant against British bikes of older design. This being before the coming of the two strokes.

The same has been said in the 90's of the Honda 500. Many years ago I read somewhere that in motorcycle racing the result in performance was 70% rider and 30% motorcycle. In car racing the percentages went the other way. How one could quantify this I do not know but I would be interested in the comments of others. Especially people like Surtees, Lawson (what ever happened to his car racing career), Gardner and Schwartz who had a go at both - admittedly in different classes.

[Rossifumi]

Lazy Boy your welcome,if there is anything you want to know just whistle and i will try to answer(I hope it doesn't involve this much of typing next time! )

OHHH....I missed one 2001 Valentino Rossi(ITA) Honda

[Lazy Boy]

I think the factors for success for racers like Schwantz and Gardner and Lawson when they switch to car racing has less and less to do anymore with a man's abilities as it does to get high "acceptance ratings" from the big dollar sponsors necessary for car racing.

...I'm speaking from the standpoint of an American (obviously)... Here it seems everything is a popularity contest... and if a person is not attractive, personable, pleasant to anybody (and any camera) he talks to, then he doesn't qualify as as a "draw" for the multi million dollar sponsors that are absolutely necessary for car racing.

... And it seems a lot of bike racers are less than "charming"... so their odds of winning a sponsor go down, the teams looking for a driver looks at him as less helpful to their needs and looks elsewhere.

...There was a Sprint car racer here with all the skills and earmarks to be a great NASCAR racer but could not get an offer because he was commonly considered to be not good looking enough.


I would also like to hear the opinions of Phil Read, Mike Hailwood, John Surtees, and others regarding the MV Agusta domination there for those 8 years... I know Honda 500 4-strokes were part of the competition there for a while, while the 2-strokes wobbled around with bad chassis.

Jeez!... I can't believe you typed that.. I figured you scanned it... but I'm not that tech savvy... maybe you can't.......Thanks again..

OOOOOH !!... And we ain't ready to give up the 01 yet either !!!

[dododo]

I also thought that rossifumi scanned it! I'm impressed, but don't you have a life .
I always thought that Schwantz was kinda "charming"........ugly but charming. Lawson never has been much of a crowd pleaser and Gardner was considered a prick. When you make a popularity list I think it looks
something like this, not in any particular order and not taking WSB into account:

Barry Sheene, Randy Mamola, Kevin Schwantz and Rossi because they know/knew how to entertain us and just being genuine nice guys. Considering nice guys, for me I would like to add Nobby Ueda, always smiling .

And ah, i think that the nr1 plate is coming back to Europe
next year......sorry.

marc

[Lazy Boy]

"Back" to Europe huh ?

Lets see.... in the last 17 years... it's been in Europe......... ONCE !!.... OUCH !!

Don't count your dodo's (extinct bird) before they hatch.

You've got

Japan (1st ever if he could do it!)
Australia
The US

And they are all going to have
something to say about it.

Consistency will be the most desireable
attribute of the next Champion.

And don't forget who has the most experience observing just how important consistency is for this goal... KRJR was riding around in the pits at GP's when he was 7 to 10 years old watching his dad struggle when Lucchinelli and Uncini and Spencer were beating him... old enough to count points.

One thing we all know..... the winner will have EARNED it.... whoever it is.

[Airhead]

Guys,

I'm still interested on your comments on the skill versus machine percentages for lap times (even though I know it is futile to try to define it).

Another piece of malicious gossip I once read was that the rider with the desire but not the talent to go car racing did so (Gardner) while the rider with the talent but not the desire did not (Doohan). Nasty ain't I.

I notice Kevin Schwartz is racing at Bathurst this month (Lazy Boy this is THE touring car race in Australia) I always liked the guy and thought he had such natural talent on a crappy bike.

As for the number one plate going to America, after Australia having a strangle hold on it for so long one can not complain. Good on you Kenny.

Here is another thought for you all to reply on. I have the feeling people are far less parochial concerning motorcycle racers - in who they support or don't support - than they are with four wheeled events. This is certainly my story.

[elephino]

You're right Moffat, it is futile as it really is impossible to tell how much is the bike and how much is the driver. An old Ferrari analogy is that if a Ferrari wins it is the car, if a Ferrari loses it is the driver.

I like Schwantz too and he does have some talent behind the wheel as has been seen when he raced Super Tourers in Australia and a little bit of V8 racing he has done. He still has a heap of talent on two wheels as was witnessed in Safari.

It is interesting how parochial fans can be and also how fickel. I think that bike fans are just as parochial about certain riders (for instance aussies with Doohan) but the difference is that they aren't as harsh to the rider if they change brand or have a bad race.

I'm not touching the Doohan/Gardner bit.

[dododo]

I think the only ones being paro, paro,paro.....whatever, about it where the Aussies with Doohan, i think compensating for the fact that he never seemed to care much
about anything going on of the racetrack. But i think you are right. If they are entertaining and give some attention to us fans i don't care, hence my little list.
And ofcourse lazy boy you're right. Most of the time it have been the Aussies and the Americans. We must not take ourselves to serious . And yes consistency wins but don't you think KRJr is well...a little boring? Take a look at Rossi fun and talented and always smiling.

As for the skill versus machine thing. If the rider is skilled and talented i think he can ride around the problems of a bike up to a certain point. After that i think there is no gain only pain. I'm referring to Kevin when he tryed to prolonge his title. He had to compensate for the bike too much and pushed it over the edge. You'll never win with a crappy bike.
At the end i cannot answer the question it's not just bike and rider.

By the way Yamaha is withdrawing from superbike.

Marc

[Lazy Boy]

On the percent of man VS percent of machine...car VS bike

Impossible to say
I've got some 20 seasons of bike racing experience... and at my level desire is a WHOLE LOT of the equation... fast guys can win on mediocre bikes.
But that is not a Professional level... and even farther away from World Champ level.
And I have barely followed car racing in the last years... car racing seems to have more to do with money and politics and technology... less to do with men who race.

So you're spinning your wheels on that one Moffat.
It's an ambiguous question IMO.

Over here Schwantz has something of a reputation of not being that good at helping the mechanics with good feedback to make proper changes, and ends up having to push a less than good machine (partly due to his own fault)... but that is only one point of view, that I'm not that comfortable repeating.

Roberts methods, results, or personality is boring?
Lucky for him he is not an actor, singer, or model.
And I'm not all that absolutely positive about this... but have they started awarding points for style, smiles, or spectacular riding?

Truth be told I only saw 2 GP's on TV last year... so I may be somwehat unaware of some things going on... I do read the multiple page newspsper reports in our Cycle News though.... Which has reporting by the tongue twisting Michael Scott, and Gordon Ritchie and occaisonal side views by Alan Cathcart.

[Airhead]

I don't know how much cross pollination goes on between forums but you guys are certainly the better informed and really less parochial.

The point is the skill inriding a GP or Superbike at the limit is such (and is visible to the rest of us) that nationality is not as important as the spectacle. I am not a Biaggi supporter, but was glad to see him win at the Island due to the competition. Maybe that's it....it's the competition that gets one in.

I have enjoyed reading these posts keep them coming...

[dododo]

Guys, "cross pollination"? Can you scale down a bit on the vocabulary? I mean, I'm an ordinairy dutch guy and we dutch do speak out languages ;-) but I have reached my level of incompetence here! I'd like to learn so if you are willing to explain such words when you use them, i don't mind.


And it's true, as it's the competition that makes exciting racing it's less important who wins. I don't care about Biaggi either but if he wins, it's deserved!. Gp has become much more exciting post Doohan. For us it is, after all, entertainment, show if you like.(Although the companies are in it for different reasons.) Which takes me to the next point quoting lazy boy:

Quote:
"Roberts methods, results, or personality is boring?
Lucky for him he is not an actor, singer, or model.
And I'm not all that absolutely positive about this... but have they started awarding points for style, smiles, or spectacular riding?"

I wish they did award points for this, because for me that's "the icing on the cake" or "the journey is as important as....".

The man vs machine thing:
with "up to a certain point" I mean excactly the same as lazy boy saying that you can compensate for a crappy bike on any level lower than worldchampion league. So in that case it's more man less machine.

(Yes, Schwantz has never been good at giving feedback. He would ride around any problem he would encounter. It hasn't been Carl Fogarty's forte aswell! The racer and the guy who gives feedback don't have to be one and the same. Who has been testing for KRSR for years? Mamola! Maybe it makes the job easier for the engineer if the racer is analytical or if they speak the same language but necessary? How do we think Rossi and Jerry Burgess(spelling?) communicate?)

I think in bike GP it's all about...allocation of bikes! Who get's a factory ride, who doesn't. I don't think Yamaha, Suzuki or Honda are willing/able to allocate more bikes even if someone would give them a bag of money.
In F1 it is all about the money. No need for explanation there. This makes it more clear then in bike-racing that all the drivers give 1 or 2 are mega-talented, able to drive for a top position if given a Ferrari or a McLaren.
The difference on a given racetrack between nr1 and nr 16 can be as little as .8s. (make sound of an F1 car doing a flyby and another .8s later). Those .8 seconds cost a hell of a lot money and it's not payable in talent.

[Airhead]

dododo

I would agree with your comments above.

[dododo]

Gee thanks Moffat, I'm writing my butt off and that's all you can say to keep a nice discussion going on

[Lazy Boy]

Yup.








sorry, i couldn't resist.