Schumacher gives the game away

[Gt_R]

Now, answer this question: "WHICH TEAM USES CARS YOU THINK ARE NOT ILLEGAL???"

If there are many teams that are using forms of TC, then why, is all the fuss centred around Ferrari (or their engine-powered cars?) by SOME of the posters?

But my answer to Dino qns is 1) NO 2) therefore NO

To explain my answer, i shall post an article which i read in Atlas F1 (one of the sites i trust most)

"All talk on Traction Control
It may seem strange to the average Formula One fan that everyone blames Ferrari, whenever accusations of cheating are doing the rounds, but there is a certain logic to it. Apart from anything else, which other team, in the entire history of the sport, has successfully appealed an FIA decision? And despite all that money and talent, how else could an Italian team beat the Best of British?

The question of traction control has reared its head again. Heinz-Harald Frentzen said something in public that a lot of drivers have been thinking - why do Ferrari engines misfire when pulling away from slow corners? Ordinarily, a misfire is bad news, indicating a sick engine and imminent trip to the pits. But it is also the preferred route to power limitation within the engine, whether to control pit-lane speed, or limit wheelspin out of corners.

So, are Ferrari cheating? Well, probably not. Traction control, according to the definition used by the FIA, boils down to systems which use feedback from the wheels to detect, and accordingly limit, wheelspin. Note, that the key word here is "feedback."

The modern Formula One engine has a relatively narrow power band, and generally the power comes on unevenly. If the cars were still controlled directly by drivers using the old wire throttle mechanism, things would look very interesting indeed - it would take a remarkably sensitive foot to handle the 800bhp coming on in spurts and starts. However, modern Formula One permits something akin to "fly by wire" in the throttle, permitting the pedal effect to be relayed via a fixed mapping to the engine. As a result, the power appear to come on smoothly as the throttle is depressed, courtesy of this mechanism, referred to as the engine mapping.

Teams spend tremendous amounts of time and money pounding the test circuits, attempting to isolate the perfect mapping for their engines. The FIA has ruled that the systems must provide a fixed mapping from pedal to throttle, and cannot incorporate feedback from the wheels. This prevents actual traction control from being used. However, there is little to prevent teams from engineering the system to have a different system for each surface condition. Accordingly, the mechanism can effectively provide the driver with maximum acceleration for any given gear on any surface. And should the mapping effectively starve the engine of fuel in some lower gears - so as to limit the power put down - then there will be a misfire.

This is not traction control, or at least, not according to the accepted definition. It's clever use of power limiting technology, which provides a similar effect. And because it is both expensive compared to the real thing, making it a toy for the biggest players, and difficult to differentiate from the genuine article, this is the key reason for bringing full blooded traction control back to Formula One."

THerefore, i believe the Ferrari is fully legal, as i believe all the rest are too, UNLESS THEY ARE FOUND TO BE ILLEGAL BY FIA. =)

[Dino IV]

... why, is all the fuss centred around Ferrari (or their engine-powered cars?) ...

When you are at AtlasF1 again, I suggest you visit the newsroom. There's a newsflash - probably at the bottom of the page now - where Frentzen has something to say about Ferrari-power. Maybe that's why ...

About the article, there you see the problem with Atlas. They think to be spot-on, but their writers are pretty off too many times (some are real authorities ofcourse, like Capps and Ludvigsen). So just curious but who wrote this? I couldn't find it at the site.

You'd better go to FIA.com and read the real Technical Regulations instead of judging by the interpretation of another. Please look up 'Paragraph 9.2: Propulsion'. There it clearly states:

9.2.1) No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver.

So this learns us two things.
1. The FIA's definition of traction control is:
System or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver.

2. It's forbidden.

Your mystery writer on the other hand says this:
So, are Ferrari cheating? Well, probably not. Traction control, according to the definition used by the FIA, boils down to systems which use feedback from the wheels to detect, and accordingly limit, wheelspin. Note, that the key word here is "feedback."

Now I read the TC article in the Tech Regs time and time again - and maybe I just failed to notice - but there's no mentioning of some 'key word "feedback"'.

No the regs are very clear: TC - any TC - is forbidden.
Any car equipped with such a system or device is therefore illegal.

[angst]

And so the argument takes a new slant, as it has with Ferrari. The FIA (weakly) deny any wrong-doing by any team, despite what Dino pointed out and this is their own fault as they are afraid of litigation because of the ambiguity of the regs. All through last season hints were made on this and certain fans would say 'no way, it's just down to MS and his brilliant skill' - now the argument is 'well it's all within the rules'. A very similar switch in stance to that of Ferrari (and the FIA). It seems to me that everybody is annoyed at Frentzen for blowing the lid on the whole thing.
And I don't believe that Ferrari are the only team. I believe Ferrari have stretched the understanding of the regs to their utmost.

[Tristan]

I make no disguise to the fact that I have an awful soft-spot when it comes to Ferraris. However, to say they are using a form of TC is anyone's guess. They may well be doing so. But, let's be honest here -

HANDS UP, PEOPLE!! HANDS UP IF YOU HONESTLY HAVE THE FAINTEST IDEA AS TO WHETHER ANY TEAM ON THE GRID IS USING TRACTION CONTROL OR NOT?? HONESTLY NOW!!

I have NO idea. And nor do ANY of us. That is, unless, you know better...........

[Quino]

It is all quite simple.

Preventing wheels from spinning is according to the rules not necessarily illegal.

Rule 9.2.1 from the FIA Rulebook states that any system or device used for preventing the wheels from spinnig because of a power-surplus is illegal.

I am in no means a technician, but as far as teams have designed engines that have a type of configuration that (for that matter fundamentaly) minimalizes the chance of wheelspin (which means engine-configuration fundamentaly influences any power-surplus leading to wheelspin) (and this is in my opinion what Mosley is saying in Autosport) they are in no way voilating the 9.2.1. Ruling for the simple fact they ARE not using any system or device for the desired effect.

For example, if one would rewrite rule 9.2.1 for the sake of top-speeds (purely hypothetical) saying that any topspeed above 320 kp/h is considered illegal, a turbo-engine passing that limit would be illegal and an atmospheric engine passing it, would not.

Therefor they can no longer enforce rule 9.2.1. in the way that they want to ban any form of traction-control and/or wheelspin-prevention (which is in my opinion just as important as traction-control allyhough far less mentioned).
And I don't think the FIA can order engine-configurations which will lead to some sort of level of wheelspin and/or lack of influence on wheelspin.

The tendency to prevent wheelspin in the fundamental design of an engine is something the FIA obviously hadn't foreseen wheel wrtinig Rule 9.2.1. because they speak of "systems or devices". The technicians once again found a loophole, one the FIA couldn't close.

But the fact the FIA can not close this loophole does not mean teams have been using illegal forms of TC. But once they have found a legal form of TC, a form that isn't legal under FIA regulation anyway, there is no point in enforcing rule 9.2.1.

Have there been teams that had benefit from the (technical) absence of wheelspin?

I think so.

Does that neccesarily mean they acted illegal?

No, and I don't think they have. If they had, they would be punished. And if one could undoubtely state a team used TC (which seems to be the case) and act illegal with it, cancelling rule 9.2.1. would have been not an issue.

[Valve Bounce]

It is most unfortunate that posters are starting to become angry with each other on any subject. It is the complication/intricate nature of engine mapping and the ECU that nobody here is really certain what is happening. May I, at this stage refer you guys to today's autorace.com and read what Patrick head has to say about TRACS. I have deliberately posted another thread on this subject so as to steer the discussions to the technical side of this subject and away from finger pointing at various teams/drivers and the angry words at each other here in our friendly and insult and abuse free forum. : This is the true definition of the word "misunderstanding" in all its forms, :confused: :confused: :confused: because nobody here really understands what TRACS is and how it can be applied legally. Those who know certainly won't be saying anything, as stated by Patrick Head. This is no reason for anyone here to get angry with anyone else, is it?

[Red]

Originally posted by Dino IV
Wrong, Max, it is the same according to article 9.2.1

Actually Dino, he’s right. The 9.2.1 refers to a device able to prevent wheels from spinning AFTER the engine delivers excessive power. Such a device would be kinda slip-torque differential that allegedly McLaren used/uses. (I say, I already proved the undeniable bias FIA shows to Mr. Ronald) What you are looking for lies in ARTICLE 5 : ENGINE

5.7 Throttle control :
5.7.1) Other than the specific exceptions mentioned below in 5.7.2, there must be a fixed relationship between the position of the throttle pedal and the engine throttles. This relationship need not be linear but the position of the engine throttles may not be influenced by anything other than movement of the throttle pedal when operated by the driver. This relationship must remain fixed whilst the car is in motion subject only to Article 8.3.

Maybe this would explain why you didn’t see the words “feedback”. There isn’t anywhere, but you’re not allowed to alter the relationship between the pedal angle and engine’s response anyway. Feedback or else. It is forbidden and I’m sure every car on the grid is perfectly compliant (Macs and Ferraris included). By the way, I joked about McLaren cheating.
So I guess that if 049C Ferrari engine “proactively prevents” the same all over the race, it is legal. Besides, give Ron some credit. Do you honestly believe that he wouldn’t jump up in the sky by now? Most definitely if we spotted Ferrari’s “illegal tricks”, he surely did the same. Somehow I believe he’s more intelligent than we are and surely has more information. He spotted a missing 4mm useless piece of carbon-fibre once, wouldn’t he hear such a terrible noise in last 18 races???