Un-retired numbers

[ensign14]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
AJ always ran 14 - no matter what he was in: Stock Cars, Sprinters, USAC/CART/IRL open wheel and I believe his LeMans winning GT40 also sported #14.

I think only 2 of AJ's 500 wins were with 14, he started to use it consistently in the late 60s IIRC.

And in NASCAR he used numbers 50 and 51 much more often - his run at the Brickyard 400 was in number 50.

Plus of course when he ran for other teams (e.g. Wood Bros) he used their numbers.

I do not see the sense in retiring ANY number. Why not retire 4 for Vuky? 25 for Sachs? 99 is arguably more famous for Murrell Belanger than Moore.

[Kicking-back]

If Champcar just numbered the cars 1-19 (missing out 13) then we wouldn't have this debate.

I don't like this practice of silly numbers like 55 or 83 when there are only 18-20 cars.

And it also irks me in IRL particularly when the champion doesn't use number 1.

I'd make that mandatory.

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
And it also irks me in IRL particularly when the champion doesn't use number 1.

Uhm.. Scott Dixon is using the #1.

[Mags]

Originally posted by rustyfan
Uhm.. Scott Dixon is using the #1.

I'm glad he didn't know that, because it means he doesn't WATCH it...

[Superunknown]

who cares if someone keeps the same number? i dont care to be shown what the previous year's championship order was every single race of the next year, I'd rather see something with which i can recognize the driver, which is the express purpose of numbers in sports, being able to quickly identify the contestent.

[Kicking-back]

I do watch the IRL and Champ Car.

I know Scott Dixon uses 1, but Sam Hornish stupidly continued to use 4 despite being champion and Lazier did the same with 91.

[Jordi]

I don't know. I understand the position of the elders here, but for us younger ones we just think Greg was very special. It's very difficult to describe... I just think it must be retired for him, and continue so.

Kicking, let them do whatever they want. I for one would like to have 1 in my car if I was the champion, but if they don't want to, they are free to do so. Just as when, in 1996, Raul Boesel wore #1, though he was not the champion (but was with Team Green)

[Mags]

Originally posted by Jordi
I don't know. I understand the position of the elders here, but for us younger ones we just think Greg was very special. It's very difficult to describe... I just think it must be retired for him, and continue so.

Kicking, let them do whatever they want. I for one would like to have 1 in my car if I was the champion, but if they don't want to, they are free to do so. Just as when, in 1996, Raul Boesel wore #1, though he was not the champion (but was with Team Green)

I thought it was disrespectful of Bruno to have the #1 on his car last year, and I (personally) thought The Racing Gods would smote him down for doing so. I never did ask him about it. Probably it was a Team Order, to show the Team earned that the year before.... but it still struck me as odd that a driver that didn't earn that would get to use it.

[Phoenix1]

Originally posted by Mags
I thought it was disrespectful of Bruno to have the #1 on his car last year, and I (personally) thought The Racing Gods would smote him down for doing so. I never did ask him about it. Probably it was a Team Order, to show the Team earned that the year before.... but it still struck me as odd that a driver that didn't earn that would get to use it.

I think the idea was that because Da Matta had got to use the number 1 early because he was off to Formula 1 it was only fair the same idea was continued to Bruno. A while back in F1 the numbers where put on the car in order of the championship as it went on I do believe. Well I remember having a goodyear 250 GP wins and the same car/driver would swap numbers from race to race. Nice idea but confussing to 90% of the non motorsport nutters public.

I also agree with Jordi that for people of my generation (I'm 22) although Ratenberger and Senna where the first loses and affected my deeply I think Greg was the first driver we 'knew'. It is sad to lose anyone and each generation has there own hero and legend. I think another factor for me was that Greg was younger and so it was more close to home in that repect he was 'one of us'. I hope that makes some kind of sense.

I do feel the champion should race with the number 1 on the car but they should also have the right in series such as ChampCar and BTCC in the UK to revert to there number they used before hand and it should be 'retired' for the next season if the driver so wishes. I personally prefer the F1 system of today as you can tell how good a team was last year compared to the current one simply by looking at the cars number, with #1 not being used if the champion is not racing instead using 0 & 2.

[JohnSSC]

An elder? Who, me??

Anyway, as point of explanation the team, rather than the driver kept the number. So we have examples where car #1 is not piloted by last year's champion. This happened a number of times in CART and USAC, along with other series.

It is not at all disrespectful though as this is a team sport and the team, not just the driver earns the championship. It would have been disrespectful to the team for Bruno not to accept the #1 designation.

[Mags]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
An elder? Who, me??

Anyway, as point of explanation the team, rather than the driver kept the number. So we have examples where car #1 is not piloted by last year's champion. This happened a number of times in CART and USAC, along with other series.

It is not at all disrespectful though as this is a team sport and the team, not just the driver earns the championship. It would have been disrespectful to the team for Bruno not to accept the #1 designation.

Ah HA!!! Team Orders!!! Is this the F1 forum, or Champ Cars!!!

JUST KIDDING. I was saying what my first, initial gut reaction was... you know what a whiner Bruno is.

I think he's talented enought to one day earn that #1, but it won't be while Paul is around, or Seb. The guy just seems to have a little black cloud following him around.

[macdaddy]

I wish that driver numbers were consistent, year after year, much like NASCAR.

Earlier in the discussion, when I suggested that every sport retires numbers, I was quickly proven wrong. Thanks for the lesson in worldliness. I guess that I was speaking about NAmerican sports, such as baseball, hockey and football. No Detroit Tiger will ever again wear Ty Cobb's number, no Red Wing will sport Gordie Howe's.

In that tradition, I like the idea of retiring numbers for legendary players. And Foyt's accomplishments certainly validate his deservedness. But no more than Mario's, Rick's, Al's, Alessandro's... And this leads me once again to my feeling that drivers should be able to keep their number throughout their careers. I see alot of NASCAR bumper stickers with an "8" (for example). Other fans automatically know who they're cheering for. I could use a CART sticker featuring the number "3" and it's up to anybody's imagination.

[cartpix]

Originally posted by Phoenix1
I think the idea was that because Da Matta had got to use the number 1 early because he was off to Formula 1 it was only fair the same idea was continued to Bruno.

Da Matta didn't get to use it early, because he was off to F1. He didn't announce he was going to F1, until after Fontana. They assigned him the #1, after he secured the championship. PT would have sported the #1,at Fontana, had there been a Calif. 500, last year.

Jeff

[JohnSSC]

I think this number thing and its use by NASCAR is just a small part of how NASCAR has built a fan base: yes, they have developed loyalties to drivers but above all the Teams: People say "The 24 car did this" or "The 6 car did that." Rather than saying "Gordon did this" or "Martin did that."

This I think is a PR thing that gets people interested in the team aspect/Series first, drivers second.

But I digress.

The whole number thing is confusing as few drivers really care which # they have so long as they have a ride in the first place! Therefore most don't "carry" a number through their careers.

[Mags]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
I think this number thing and its use by NASCAR is just a small part of how NASCAR has built a fan base: yes, they have developed loyalties to drivers but above all the Teams: People say "The 24 car did this" or "The 6 car did that." Rather than saying "Gordon did this" or "Martin did that."

This I think is a PR thing that gets people interested in the team aspect/Series first, drivers second.

But I digress.

The whole number thing is confusing as few drivers really care which # they have so long as they have a ride in the first place! Therefore most don't "carry" a number through their careers.

One thing one can't knock NASCAR for, is it's brilliant marketing.

[Snrub]

I don't think anyone has done enough in CART history to deserve their number retired because I think it should only be done when something has been accomplished that will either never be topped or not topped for a very long time.

I think Rodriguez and Krosnoff's numbers should be retired. I found it strange that Laguna wasn't cancelled after Rodriguez died.

Zanardi's number should NOT be retired because it would be contrary to what Zanardi has accomplished. He is the truest survivor and he still races.

[JohnSSC]

As long as we remember the driver and his accomplishemnts, in a sense aren't they all "still racing?"

[macdaddy]

Yes, they are. Truer words have never been spoken.

[Mags]

Originally posted by Snrub
I don't think anyone has done enough in CART history to deserve their number retired because I think it should only be done when something has been accomplished that will either never be topped or not topped for a very long time.

I think Rodriguez and Krosnoff's numbers should be retired. I found it strange that Laguna wasn't cancelled after Rodriguez died.

Zanardi's number should NOT be retired because it would be contrary to what Zanardi has accomplished. He is the truest survivor and he still races.

Ask Alessandro if Greg's number should have been retired.. he will tell you YES.

Greg was the youngest Champ car winner ever. He was one of the ladder series stars.. he was the pinnicle of what Champ cars MEANT.

Greg was special. He had done so MUCH. I can't understand why everyone can't understand this. Didn't the American press care about Greg's career? He was a superstar. He was what everything GOOD about racing in Champ Cars was about.

If anyone, and I am VERY SERIOUS HERE, wants this, please PM me, I'll be more than happy to send you a tape special of Greg's life and times. My best bud saw him the night before. Him and Patrick were signing autographs at 530PM at Fontana, and laughing about the fact they were Canadians, and shouldn't there be Americans standing there doing this???? Very special guys.

I still look for him whenever I go to a CART race. I still can't beleive he's gone.

[429CJ]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
If Champcar just numbered the cars 1-19 (missing out 13) then we wouldn't have this debate.

I don't like this practice of silly numbers like 55 or 83 when there are only 18-20 cars.

This 1-2-3-4-5 etc. numbering suits well for square, personality sufficating F1, but not for others.