Slowing for Yellows

[Walshy]

I have just posted this in another Thread......

"At the end of the day lads. Ours is not to reason why a yellow flag comes out. If there is a Yellow flag for whatever reason, we gotta slow down. It's very possible that we can't actually see the incident from the cockpit.
I had to write a piece for work the other day on something similar. I used the comparison of standing at the side of the motorway if you have ever broken down. Stood there, with cars passing at 70 to 80mph is not nice. Imagine these marshals working on a car with others passing in excess of 100mph. You all know that when you slow from 120 to 100 in a Formula Ford, it feels like you are crawling. On this subject, I am gonna start a new Thread. Watch this space..................."

Well here goes. What do you class as a safe speed to slow down to?????

As I was acting as a DSO on Saturday at Oulton Park, I returned to the paddock to witness 2 of the drivers in heated debate following the incident at Lodge. One was calling the other for wreckless driving and in turn, he was calling the other for slowing down too much. Say if you think I'm wrong, but I would think that the law of the road dictates this one.

Under yellows, you cannot overtake. Pure and simple. In that case, you have to slow down to the pace of the car in front. He then dictates the speed through the incident. Whether he is doing 30mph through it or 60mph through it, you have to follow at that speed. You may not agree with his speed and think it is too slow, but this is only your interpretation and who is to say you are right. He may read the incident differently to you and warrant the slower speed. As these two were never going to agree, I summized that the incident was the fault of the following car as he just made a misjudgement. Like on any road, if you run into the back of someone, you misjudged it. That simple.

Tell me if you agree or not??????????

[Ian Sowman]

I didn't see the follow on incident but I did see the exchange between the drivers concerned. My own view (as a non-driver) is that surely the rate at which you slow down is almost more important than the speed which you eventually slow down to. If a car in front slams on the brakes, there is a bigger chance of an accident than if he eases off sensibly and steadily.

[blue nose]

I agree but Over a given lap you slow down to about 2-3 seconds a lap on stationary yellows and not 11 seconds over forty yards that is almost a dead stop and thats with no visible insident over to you?

[diz]

Same driver that boxed you up at Shell Out I believe Alan.
Now says he'll tell CoC next time out that he has no intention of slowing for yellows in future. Full racing speed it will be.
Words need to be had.

[blue nose]

It was Diz but there was no green flag after the yellow.

[Walshy]

All i can say to that, is the said driver nearly collected you Alan at Lodge and had to anchor to avoid you. If the following drivers had slowed enough through the incident, they would not have collected him. Again, it comes back to slowing down enough. Especially somewhere like Lodge. On your arrival, you can't see what is happening in Deer Leap. For all you know, the track could be totally blocked. so if you only lose 20-30 mph entering it, you are gonna hit something. This is why you have to adjust your speed accordingly.

That said, I told the driver he was a nutter for standing in the middle of the track and I'm surprised nothing has happened about that. Like I said to him afterwards. What if the next car around didn't slow. They would have ploughed into him.

I am talking completely impartially in this instance, but I think it was an avoidable incident and people need to be aware of what is going on around them. The race before, I was a victim of someone not having any spacial awareness...................

[blue nose]

But at Lodge it was a real Accident and with cars destroyed all over the track what ever he was doing out of Shell...I think he was changing a CD

[Walshy]

I can't comment on that mate as I didn't see it. That said, this isn't aimed at one driver. It is just being used as an example to get the point across that we need to slow down effectively for these yellow flags. God forbid one of us hit a marshal. I really think it would be game over........

We have got to remember. These people do their thing out of love for the sport. O wouldn't want to be responsible for ruining that.....

[jminsh]

Originally posted by diz
Same driver that boxed you up at Shell Out I believe Alan.
Now says he'll tell CoC next time out that he has no intention of slowing for yellows in future. Full racing speed it will be.
Words need to be had.

Would his car be capable of full racing speed i've never seen it in the years i've seen the said person driving!!!

[swift]

I can see this being a a tad controversial but there was a point in the drivers briefing earlier about lifting off too severely could also cause an incident.

The crash in question happened before I arrived at Lodge. The yellow was not waved until I'd turned into and was already committed to the corner. At this point I saw the carnage but wasn't about to lift until I got the car straight otherwise I'd have probably joined them in the barriers. That said, I did lift as I dropped into Deer Leap. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, Stuart was going so slowly I assumed he was heading for the pits as he was also well over to the right of the circuit. So, I past him as we began to climb out of the dip.

It is my opinion that had I slowed to match Stuart's pace I would have gone off, simple. There's slowing down and there's slowing down, I feel that Stuart was too severe in his loss of momentum.


I guess when Barry happened upon Stuart it was too little too late but I didn't see it so I can't really comment.

[Walshy]

Quote:The crash in question happened before I arrived at Lodge. The yellow was not waved until I'd turned into and was already committed to the corner. At this point I saw the carnage but wasn't about to lift until I got the car straight otherwise I'd have probably joined them in the barriers. That said, I did lift as I dropped into Deer Leap. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, Stuart was going so slowly I assumed he was heading for the pits as he was also well over to the right of the circuit. So, I past him as we began to climb out of the dip.

Was there no stationary yellow prior to the corner Swifty?

I don't think it was a case of him lifting off to severely. He had to practically stop in the dip to avoid collecting Alan, so he had no momentum coming out of Deer Leap.

One other thing to come out of this was the lack of a green at the Marshals post at the top of Deer Leap. And as we all know, you don't start racing until you see the green.

As I said, it's not for me to take sides or judge as I wasn't in the cars and I didn't see exactly what happened in the dip, but i know that their was a big speed difference by the way the cars collided........

[Ian Sowman]

A couple of things - from my own recollection of the incident it would appear that there would not have been time for a still yellow to go out at Lodge before swift arrived there, or certainly it is feasible that there was not.

Second, are you now saying the car in question only slowed as much as it did to avoid hitting another car? I'd be interested to get that clear as I think it does make a difference.

[swift]

No, as I previously said the first yellow I saw was waved as I turned into Lodge.I actually seem to remember seeing the marshal "appearing" in the box with the flag. According to the lap chart, on the previous circulation, I was about 8 seconds behind the leading trio. Would this have given the marshal at Lodge in enough time to hang out a flag? I don't know, but I certainly don't remember seeing one there.

If Stuart had to virtually stop to avoid the incident this would explain why I thought he was heading for the pits at the speed he was doing. I still feel I had no option to pass him as I'm certain I couldn't have slowed down to match his pace not in that short distance.

[Walshy]

From what the driver said to me, he was right behind as this happened. As he was heading into the dip, Alan's car was coming across the track and he said he had to come to a near stand still to avoid collecting Alan. As I said, this would have seriously affected his speed on the way out of Deer Leap. Not to mention that with such a lift and brake, it's not inconceivable that the engine could have choked a little compounding poor acceleration out of the dip. That last part is speculation though.

Whatever, arguing the toss in the paddock afterwards never solves anything as drivers never agree. I think that's why they call them racing incidents(!)

The issue here is not the accident though. As I said, that has been used an example. The point is the slowing down for yellow flags. It would be interesting to get the times from MST for that lap before the red flags. That said. The cars in question, never completed the lap........

[halecmini]

personally I have had a few people slow down a dangerous amount because of a yellow flag, this has often been far more dangerous than the accident it's self. I argee with slowing down so you have total control of the car but we do have to trust the judgement of the marshals, if there was no way through the carnage and it was to dangerous to continue at a slowed pace, i would hope a red flag would be out....

[Ian Sowman]

Agreed, but there is a time lag between an accident occuring and a red flag going out.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally posted by Walshy
...God forbid one of us hit a marshal. I really think it would be game over........

As a Marshal (Observer) I agree! Accidents DO happen and I don't know of any marshals that would bear a grudge if an injury occured from an "Accident"
However, if a Marshal was injured in any way because of dangerous/reckless/careless driving whilst under the caution of a yellow flag then I honestly believe that YOUR championship would face a boycott from the marshals!
The feelings on yellow flag infringements is running very high at the moment, and with no obvious clampdown on offenders, marshals are almost reluctant to deal with incidents whilst the track is live!

Originally posted by Walshy
...We have got to remember. These people do their thing out of love for the sport. O wouldn't want to be responsible for ruining that.....

I think you could be ruining it for yourselves!

The VAST majority of drivers in all series DO drive within the MSA regulations but for that small minority - usually when the red mist sets in - are making things a little scary sometimes.