Historic Racing Today

[grantp]

It occurs to me that the concept of a Handicap race could be updated somewhat for the 21st century. There are sophisticated timing systems available that should be able to indicate progress in something very close to real time. Perhaps someone has done that already? Pursuit cycling maybe?

Do existing Handicap events already make use of such facilities?

Races could be run by distance (with staggered starts where facilities allow) or by time with the distance covered, being the target for wins, adjusted by the handicap factor.

So long as progress could be presented reasonably accurately to both competitors and spectators I would imagine the idea could be presented in a suitably creative way.

[zefarelly]

At LMC their is an index of performance category, as in period.

trophy just as big.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by grantp

It occurs to me that the concept of a Handicap race could be updated somewhat for the 21st century. There are sophisticated timing systems available that should be able to indicate progress in something very close to real time. Perhaps someone has done that already? Pursuit cycling maybe?

Do existing Handicap events already make use of such facilities?

Races could be run by distance (with staggered starts where facilities allow) or by time with the distance covered, being the target for wins, adjusted by the handicap factor.

So long as progress could be presented reasonably accurately to both competitors and spectators I would imagine the idea could be presented in a suitably creative way.

21st Century! This is an Historic thread. Horses ..... what is the world coming to.

[morninggents]

I like the idea of handicap races and back in the 1960s/1970s race meetings often had them on the card - often to finish the day. The first race I ever did, boxing day, 1966, at Croft was a handicap event and I came last after spinning on the first lap - the weather was horrible, damp and murky typical Croft fare. The race included a C type Jag and a Lister something and was a mix of sports racers, GT cars and saloons. Somewhere I have a photo of the grid. I'll try to find it and post it one day.
My brother had driven the car (Ford Anglia Twin Cam) in the saloon race earlier in the day (without spinning!) and adding a handicap race was always a good way of letting us both have a drive.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by bauble

21st Century! This is an Historic thread. Horses ..... what is the world coming to.

Who knows Bob?

Some would say that they would like to see the world return to horses and similar in the future.

VSCC still run Handicaps don't they?

At a guess "Historic" racing is involved today with running cars that are older than the Vintage (and possibly Veterans) were when VSCC started.

Maybe there should be a handover proposition of some sort so that interest parties could enjoy a handicap race run by those with pre-existing expertise in organising them? Then decide whether it was a good place to stay.

[Peter Mallett]

There is a company that has the strap line, "Historic racing-modern technology" on its banners.

Honest but it does grate somewhat.

[midgetman]

There is a magazine called Historic Mtor Racing Technology.

All our motor racing terms come from horse racing. Clerk of the Course, Paddock, Stewards etc. Explains a lot about our archaic governance. At non-MSA karting we have Race Directors and Pits to start with!

Every race for me is a handicap. I'm handicapped by my lack of talent, lack of mechanical skill...

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[bauble]

I saw a lot of handicap races, in the 50's (historic enough for you chaps?), and they were usually exciting, even if difficult to follow, and later this year I shall watch another one - the Birkett.

Also of course the popular Formula Libre races that pitted every type of car against the other, another great viewing spectacle, even at the Grand Prix Meeting.

And yes the VSCC include plenty of h'caps in their calendar.

Modern motor sport for me includes to many 'one make' series, I much prefer a mix of cars rather than colours.

Keep this up and we might stimulate a few more interventions form those who claim the forum is lacking interest.

[John Turner]

I'm not sure that I could get too excited about races that are solely handicaps but in FISCAR we run what is effectively a handicap race within our races, based on an indices of performance of previous results calculated by Mark Campbell. We actually call it the Index of Performance as a nod to Le Mans although fuel efficiency plays no part. Since we also have class awards and team awards, everyone has a chance to go for something. If you take a look here, and scroll down to bottom of page (but before gallery), you'll see an example of our results:-

http://fiscar.org/bentley-drivers-club/

[retrognome]

Originally Posted by grantp

Who knows Bob?

Some would say that they would like to see the world return to horses and similar in the future.

VSCC still run Handicaps don't they?

At a guess "Historic" racing is involved today with running cars that are older than the Vintage (and possibly Veterans) were when VSCC started.

Maybe there should be a handover proposition of some sort so that interest parties could enjoy a handicap race run by those with pre-existing expertise in organising them? Then decide whether it was a good place to stay.

As a photographer: The problem with handicap races is cars tend to circulate in lonely ones or two until the final lap. No first lap tussles and not very exciting.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by retrognome

As a photographer: The problem with handicap races is cars tend to circulate in lonely ones or two until the final lap. No first lap tussles and not very exciting.

True, although I suppose with a decent number of cars (if the format attracted entries) there should be a few in each category that would circulate together.

With thin grids things spread out anyway.

Indeed the races with the widest spread of performance seem to offer the greatest concentration of multiple cars concentrating at the corners.

However what I was originally envisaging was more of a race within a race, as John mentions for FISCar (sort of).

With modern timing capabilities it ought to be possible to run a scratch race but time it as if it were a handicap as well as a scratch race.

That would be workable if the objective was to give the entrants track time (as they are paying for it).

There should be a number of permutations possible I would imagine. How to work out which, if any, were the most engaging for drivers, teams and spectators might take a little while.

[retrognome]

Originally Posted by grantp

True, although I suppose with a decent number of cars (if the format attracted entries) there should be a few in each category that would circulate together.

With thin grids things spread out anyway.

Indeed the races with the widest spread of performance seem to offer the greatest concentration of multiple cars concentrating at the corners.

However what I was originally envisaging was more of a race within a race, as John mentions for FISCar (sort of).

With modern timing capabilities it ought to be possible to run a scratch race but time it as if it were a handicap as well as a scratch race.

That would be workable if the objective was to give the entrants track time (as they are paying for it).

There should be a number of permutations possible I would imagine. How to work out which, if any, were the most engaging for drivers, teams and spectators might take a little while.

Two races with a short gap between.

[midgetman]

It's called a sealed handicap and we had those in the MGCC as well. It's still rum - think of the Birkett where you have two winners, scratch and handicap. I'm not saying it's the answer to all ills, just that variety is the spice of life and "same old, same old" does breed contempt.

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[midgetman]

Originally Posted by retrognome

Two races with a short gap between.

We do that in karting. Often causes total chaos!

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[grantp]

Originally Posted by retrognome

Two races with a short gap between.

What would that be aiming to achieve?

I saw a night race at Donington a while back, part of Britcar iirc, that was a 3 hr endurance with a 2 hr race running at the same time from the start.

I have to say that was somewhat different.


It's a pity circuits can't usually be run in the opposite direction.

If it was possible one could run and "out and back" race (school playground stuff when running was allowed).

How ever far one had got, turn around and head back. First back to their "base" wins but you have to equal or beat a target on the way out as well as race others in you class.

Hmm. Something tells me this could get daft ... (or should that be "more daft"?)

[bauble]

Early Brands Hatch Boxing Day Meetings would run a race featuring three different 'one-make series', the groups being flagged off at intervals depending on their lap times. Minis, Renault 5's, and what else I can't immediately remember. It was fun to see the faster cars from each series trying to get trough the pack, or try to stay ahead of their pursuers. Certainly entertaining.

Organisers just need a little imagination to come up with spectator friendly events.

Clios, chased by Ginettas, chased by Porsches.

[Derwent Motorsp]

Knockhill has had races in both directions.

[gary396]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

Knockhill has had races in both directions.

At the same time?

[midgetman]

Aye and there's the rub. No one in motor sport is being imaginative and we are stuck in a rut.

Howard Strawford at Combe used to say races were 50% too long - and that was back in the 80s/90s. Since then the situation has got worse for the casual spectator with ever longer races and historic racing is in the vanguard of that. For obvious "value" reasons.

Look at the crowds at Silverstone and Goodwood, part of that is the excitement of seeing so many races packed into a very full day. Alex went to spectate at Snetterton for a Clubbie recently and saw so little track action for his 15/20 quid. The festivals are expensive, but well worth it for the volume and variety of racing.

Why is spectator enjoyment important? Years ago when my dad raced cars if there was a good crowd then he got a rebate on his entry. You'll never get enough people to be able do that these days, apart from a few notable exceptions.

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[zefarelly]

Goodwood only manage 7 races in a day?

Originally Posted by midgetman

Look at the crowds at Silverstone and Goodwood, part of that is the excitement of seeing so many races packed into a very full day. Alex went to spectate at Snetterton for a Clubbie recently and saw so little track action for his 15/20 quid. The festivals are expensive, but well worth it for the volume and variety of racing.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Aye and there's the rub. No one in motor sport is being imaginative and we are stuck in a rut.

Howard Strawford at Combe used to say races were 50% too long - and that was back in the 80s/90s. Since then the situation has got worse for the casual spectator with ever longer races and historic racing is in the vanguard of that. For obvious "value" reasons.

Look at the crowds at Silverstone and Goodwood, part of that is the excitement of seeing so many races packed into a very full day. Alex went to spectate at Snetterton for a Clubbie recently and saw so little track action for his 15/20 quid. The festivals are expensive, but well worth it for the volume and variety of racing.

Why is spectator enjoyment important? Years ago when my dad raced cars if there was a good crowd then he got a rebate on his entry. You'll never get enough people to be able do that these days, apart from a few notable exceptions.

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I'm not sure about some of that Max.

Bike meeting seem to push the races through at a pace but then they can as "recovery and repair" time is generally not significant and vans collecting failed bikes are not usually deployed after every race. At least not at the meetings I have been to and judging by listening to much of the Thundersports meeting at Donington over the weekend, not for them either.

Some of the car meetings manage to get the available track time well utilised too, but others still seem to have quite extensive "down time" even when recovery is not required. Admittedly lack of need for recovery seems to be rare ....

Long races eliminate periods of down time. So one could suggest that everyone gets better value for money in terms of on track action. Whether the quality holds up will always be open for debate.

Maybe long races at clubbie meetings put off spectators - but I'm not convinced they are big problem overall. They could, however, be better presented so that the action that is developing was more clearly accessible.

Back in the .... well, a long time ago I attended a BOAC 1000km race at Brands. The place was packed. Nothing else much to do on a Sunday I suppose. Shops closed, TV hours limited.

The "Leader boards" were kept updated. The commentary was "to the point" and one could readily discover the latest state of play when required so long as one was near a tannoy or within sight of the large leader board structures.

That was something like a 6 hour race iirc.

The British GT round at Donington a couple of weeks ago was quite busy for a car event - but by no means jam packed on the spectator front.

The main race on Sunday was 2 hours and 2 drivers.

Quite entertaining. Well commentated. Donington's public broadcast system is pretty good mostly and if that is not enough the commentary is broadcast on FM radio so most phones can receive it. Or smart phones/some tablets could connect to the streamed Live Timing. This season the timing systems seem to have moved to full 3 sector reporting as the standard though I note that the BSB event at Donington a week ago used 4 sector analysis for the full "GP" circuit.

So the potential for following the intricacies of a long race is better that it ever has been - but attendance figures might not reflect that. On the other hand the British GT/F3 "package", with a few random events seemingly dropped in over the weekend, seemed to attract a half decent crowd and a LOT of people with media tabards. (As it was quite a warm day I felt sorry for those who needed pit lane access and so had to wear full overalls and a helmet.)

I note that the Donington web site is showing a weekend for what seems to be a classic bike endurance meeting next year. Presumably they think the bike audience, usually larger than the car crowds, can live with some historic endurance racing.

http://www.donington-park.co.uk/even...s/10227/#event

A 4 hours classic bike endurance race. That sounds like a good challenge for everyone.



OK, the BOAC 1000km was a long time ago and the world, especially people's "instant gratification" expectations and probably shorter attention spans, is different.

But then if it matters whether spectators turn up or not when the organisers no longer have the gamble of being able to attract an interesting bunch of competitors with the prize money and large enough bunch of spectators to pay for it, the "show" has to adapt to reflect that.

I'm not sure people think that is important any more. Maybe it isn't.

[retrognome]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Aye and there's the rub. No one in motor sport is being imaginative and we are stuck in a rut.

Howard Strawford at Combe used to say races were 50% too long - and that was back in the 80s/90s. Since then the situation has got worse for the casual spectator with ever longer races and historic racing is in the vanguard of that. For obvious "value" reasons.

Look at the crowds at Silverstone and Goodwood, part of that is the excitement of seeing so many races packed into a very full day. Alex went to spectate at Snetterton for a Clubbie recently and saw so little track action for his 15/20 quid. The festivals are expensive, but well worth it for the volume and variety of racing.

Why is spectator enjoyment important? Years ago when my dad raced cars if there was a good crowd then he got a rebate on his entry. You'll never get enough people to be able do that these days, apart from a few notable exceptions.

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Race organisers don't receive revenue from the circuits owners re spectator numbers, so they don't worry about the entertainment side of things.

[andy97]

A good few years I went to a truck race meeting at Brands Hatch (don't ask) but I remember one of the races being a "devil take the hindmost" race. Basically, after a couple of laps the last placed truck was waved off, and this happened every lap until 4 or 6 trucks remained with a couple of laps to go and then it was winner takes all.

Quite entertaining!

[Tim Barry]

Originally Posted by andy97

A good few years I went to a truck race meeting at Brands Hatch (don't ask) but I remember one of the races being a "devil take the hindmost" race. Basically, after a couple of laps the last placed truck was waved off, and this happened every lap until 4 or 6 trucks remained with a couple of laps to go and then it was winner takes all.

Quite entertaining!

I seem to remember FF1600 races at Brands running "black flag" races in the 70s where the last car was flagged off and one driver completely ignoring the flag.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by andy97

A good few years I went to a truck race meeting at Brands Hatch (don't ask) but I remember one of the races being a "devil take the hindmost" race. Basically, after a couple of laps the last placed truck was waved off, and this happened every lap until 4 or 6 trucks remained with a couple of laps to go and then it was winner takes all.

Quite entertaining!

A popular format in track cycling.