[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

So you drive a Subaru?

Originally Posted by Adam43

It’s a fun engine. I had a GT86. Great to see that engine mounted so low.

That took a turn quickly!

[broadrun96]

Great, so we've got a shirt and pants thread going. One has pictures and let's keep it at one thanks

[Sodemo]

In terms of the BOP itself, the fact that Vanwall and Glick are non hybrid cars yet are only about 10-20kg lighter than the other hybrid enabled cars is a total slap in the face to these smaller teams. The benefit of the increased torque of the hybrid system is significant and a 20kg weight saving is no where near generous enough. The non hybrid cars should be at least 50kg lighter.

[S griffin]

Yes, it's clear they haven't got their sums right. It's understandable they have got special weight breaks against the hybrid cars, but 10-20 is hardly a good equivalence. Especially considering there are less disadvantages of running a hybrid. Unless the hybrid cars run into problems, the non hybrid cars have no chance. Time for a rethink methinks

[broadrun96]

Think there's a misunderstanding of how the hybrid is applied there and limits of application.

Sorry comparing Vanwall to Toyota based on lap time is a slap in the face to sanity. Yes Vanwall are present but the professionals at Toyota in the car and the pits are orders of magnitude better

[veeten]

The true weight dimensions of the LMH changed between the 2020 regs and the 2023 regs, whereas the original was at 1100 K the latter is now at 1030 K, a 70 K difference. The Toyota, Glickenhaus, and Vanwall(ByKolles), were built to the original, but when the new regs were established, they had to shed that amount to balance out against the LMDh's, as well as the newer LMH's.

Vanwall and Glickenhaus are finding it harder to match up than the Toyota, irreguardless of the hybrid systems.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

In terms of the BOP itself, the fact that Vanwall and Glick are non hybrid cars yet are only about 10-20kg lighter than the other hybrid enabled cars is a total slap in the face to these smaller teams. The benefit of the increased torque of the hybrid system is significant and a 20kg weight saving is no where near generous enough. The non hybrid cars should be at least 50kg lighter.

Quick question, what does 10-20 and 50kg get you lap time wise? Would the extra 40kg ish get them the difference? It’s a bit more success ballast like previous years this.

The hybrid doesn’t actual add any power, the total isn’t boosted by hybrid. As the total allowed in the rules is set as a combination of both. Glickenhaus are allowed a little more power than the others (8kW more than Toyota).

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Quick question, what does 10-20 and 50kg get you lap time wise? Would the extra 40kg ish get them the difference? It’s a bit more success ballast like previous years this.

The hybrid doesn’t actual add any power, the total isn’t boosted by hybrid. As the total allowed in the rules is set as a combination of both. Glickenhaus are allowed a little more power than the others (8kW more than Toyota).

The weight would affect the cornering more than the straight bits from what I have read.

In terms of the bop if the Vanwall has slightly more kw, does that account for torque? Is it not like when they tried to “balance” turbo and non turbo engines in touring cars and no matter what they really did, the turbo engines always had an advantage due to their torque delivery.

[Adam43]

Yes. Top speed doesn’t really change much with weight. As that is the limit, it is aero drag or gear ratio. It is acceleration that is impacted (all kinds- lateral, or straight line getting faster, or braking). But what does 50kg do to lap time?

The BoP tables give the maximum power at all engine speeds. And as torque is a function of engine speed and power it effectively tells you what torque you can have. Hybrid or not you can’t exceed that. And they measure the total torque all the time.

So if you are hybrid there isn’t a performance benefit, you just use less engine to get to the same level.

Non hybrid or hybrid I suppose you could technically have a really week engine that can’t do that, but the power curves don’t look stupid. I suspect my race B’s power or torque curve is similar in shape.

[Steve McQ]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Think there's a misunderstanding of how the hybrid is applied there and limits of application.

Sorry comparing Vanwall to Toyota based on lap time is a slap in the face to sanity. Yes Vanwall are present but the professionals at Toyota in the car and the pits are orders of magnitude better

Yeah, BOP applies all across the max power curves for every cars. That means all cars have the exact potential maximum power output with no regards to the way their engine ans transmission works. During Spa, Romain Dumas explained they had a deficit in traction control, and we can expect Glick and Vanwall to be less efficient than works cars on transmission efficiency (gearbox, gearbox actuator, traction control etc...).

Just a reminder, at the beginning of the 2000s, Audi and AER had the same kind of engines (V8, twinturbo, 3.6L, same air restrictors) with same potential. I guess one of the two had a more powerful and more efficient powerplant... Things have not changed since those days, with all respect due to Pipo and Gibson, there is no way they can provide an as good an engine as an OEM can do, all things equal otherwise. Pipo and Gibson are the new Judd.

[Adam43]

Here are the power curves for all the Hypercars. As mentioned this is Hybrid or not.

The dotted green line is a curve from a rolling road test of my MGB (scaled up to 520kW!) just to show that the curves aren't outrageous. The MGB has a very peaky cam in it too - there is nothing under 3.5k!

For any modern engine it is easy peasy to get that power curve with these low powers.

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

In terms of the BOP itself, the fact that Vanwall and Glick are non hybrid cars yet are only about 10-20kg lighter than the other hybrid enabled cars is a total slap in the face to these smaller teams. The benefit of the increased torque of the hybrid system is significant and a 20kg weight saving is no where near generous enough. The non hybrid cars should be at least 50kg lighter.

I can't remember when, but I feel at some point when rebellion thought they might get fair eot the ACO was basically like, "Well of course Toyota has favorable specs. They've invested more and they're running a hybrid, you're aren't. They're going to be faster and more efficient in this ruleset."

So far Ferrari is really the only team that has built a decent car to aco's ruleset. Peugeot is unfortunate. The rest haven't built a car according to the desires of the rule makers. IMSA!? BACKYARD DAYTONA AMERICAN SERIES!? Good luck being competitive against the kind of cars we'd like to headline.

It's a custom fitted tin foil hat, thanks for noticing.

[Adam43]

If Porsche was quickest we could still have the tinfoil hat - most successful manufacturer, providing customer cars, winning in the centenary year. And kudos for uniting sportcar racing the world over.
If Peugeot, well French. If Ferrari, prestige.

[seanyb505]

Point taken! I'll admit my weakness is watching the last 3 races play out and failing to believe Toyota have more than one competitor. Ferrari, a team that hasn't yet got it together. But almost legitimately the only team to be close to Toyota in the current ruleset. No one else has a hope until they go full lmh[ybrid] or add a rear wing.

[Adam43]

That said, any balancing comes with uncertainty. If the Porsche was either 1045kg or 1040kg, new car, new rules, why not 1045?

[Adam43]

Tedious Table ALERT!

There was a different style to this pre-2021 - more success penalties.

Weight (Kg)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL
23/4/2021	Spa	1040		930
28/4/2021	Spa	1040		930
2/6/2021	Portimao	1066	1030	952
5/6/2021	Portimao	1066	1030	952
12/6/2021	Portimao	1066	1030	952
8/7/2021	Monza	1066	1030	952
4/8/2021	Le Mans	1066	1030	952
2/11/2021	Bahrain	1040		930
3/4/2022	Sebring	1070	1030	952
27/4/2022	Spa	1070	1030	952
1/6/2022	Le Mans	1070	1030	952
9/6/2022	Le Mans	1070	1030	952
10/6/2022	Le Mans	1070	1030	952
5/7/2022	Monza	1071	1030	952	1079
3/9/2022	Fuji	1053	1012	952	1061
6/9/2022	Fuji	1053	1012	952	1061
4/11/2022	Bahrain	1053		952	1049
3/8/2023	Sebring	1062	1030		1049	1038	1057	1048	1030
3/8/2023	Portimao	1043	1030		1042	1035	1040	1045	1030
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680

Energy Allocation (MJ)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL
23/4/2021	Spa	964		920
28/4/2021	Spa	964		920
2/6/2021	Portimao	962	965	918
5/6/2021	Portimao	962	965	918
12/6/2021	Portimao	962	965	918
8/7/2021	Monza	962	965	918
4/8/2021	Le Mans	962	965	844
2/11/2021	Bahrain	909		816
3/4/2022	Sebring	898	910	797
27/4/2022	Spa	898	910	797
1/6/2022	Le Mans	898	910	774
9/6/2022	Le Mans	898	910	785
10/6/2022	Le Mans	898	910	753
5/7/2022	Monza	905	921	795	909
3/9/2022	Fuji	905	921	752	909
6/9/2022	Fuji	905	921	752	909
4/11/2022	Bahrain	901		763	908
3/8/2023	Sebring	913	911		909	905	908	912	900
3/8/2023	Portimao	904	913		908	904	899	910	901
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680

Max Power (kW)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL
23/4/2021	Spa	520		454
28/4/2021	Spa	520		454
2/6/2021	Portimao	515	520	450
5/6/2021	Portimao	515	520	450
12/6/2021	Portimao	515	520	450
8/7/2021	Monza	515	520	450
4/8/2021	Le Mans	515	520	450
2/11/2021	Bahrain	520		454
3/4/2022	Sebring	506	520	430
27/4/2022	Spa	506	520	410
1/6/2022	Le Mans	506	520	420
9/6/2022	Le Mans	506	520	427
10/6/2022	Le Mans	506	520	417
5/7/2022	Monza	513	533	428	515
3/9/2022	Fuji	513	533	399	515
6/9/2022	Fuji	513	533	399	515
4/11/2022	Bahrain	509		403	515
3/8/2023	Sebring	517	520		518	513	515	517	511
3/8/2023	Portimao	512	520		516	513	509	516	512
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680

And a new table! Aren't we lucky?!

Add Docking Time (s)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL
3/8/2023	Sebring	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
3/8/2023	Portimao	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680

[Aysedasi]

You are truly L'Homme de Table.........

[Steve McQ]

Great presentation. We can see how Monza last year was an anomaly. BoP did not change drammatically versus LM24 2022 (Oreca/Rebellion/Alpine not considered) and yet Toyota was completely off the pace and Glick should have won it. It was the moment they introduced the now infamous mechanical differential and it hurt them a lot. Now they sorted it out and refined the aerodynamics, they are back at the very, very front.

What a surprise, Peugeot received the most BoP breaks by far ! The original weight was given after homologation which gave a theoretical performance that did not happen in real life. It shows how poor the car is at the moment, and also the potential of its concept in the wind tunnel.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

What a surprise, Peugeot received the most BoP breaks by far ! The original weight was given after homologation which gave a theoretical performance that did not happen in real life. It shows how poor the car is at the moment, and also the potential of its concept in the wind tunnel.

Above all it shows that wind tunnel testing and real on-track performance are two totally different things, which is something the ACO (intentionally or not) doesn't want to acknowledge it seems.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Here are the power curves for all the Hypercars. As mentioned this is Hybrid or not.

The dotted green line is a curve from a rolling road test of my MGB (scaled up to 520kW!) just to show that the curves aren't outrageous. The MGB has a very peaky cam in it too - there is nothing under 3.5k!

For any modern engine it is easy peasy to get that power curve with these low powers.

Thanks for the explanation and clarifying, I had it wrong in my head.

[Adam43]

It remains to be seen if there is some knock on effect of engine + hyrbid, but the intent is that they are equal to engine. I don’t think there is a difference.

Our main problem in comparing is that all the big teams go hybrid so you are comparing two hints at once.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Our main problem in comparing is that all the big teams go hybrid so you are comparing two hints at once.

Isotta Fraschini has a hybrid so that problem will be solved next year

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Above all it shows that wind tunnel testing and real on-track performance are two totally different things, which is something the ACO (intentionally or not) doesn't want to acknowledge it seems.

Or any other racing series

[Simmi]

Interesting to see that they've shredded what they said they'd do and just reverted back to per-car adjustments, in a window which wasn't mandated:

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...ght-increases/

[Steve McQ]

This is crap. Why do that before THE race of the year while could have tested other things for 3 races beforehand ?

People running the championship should be fired immediately.