SCCA Trans-Am Series

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

In spite of the fear of veeriing waaaaay off topic

Well, Trans Am was once called(and should go back to being) "stock car road racing" so I don't think using NASCAR as points of reference for styling matters is THAT far off topic.

[jjvincent]

EX IMSA stock car racer to run in Europe.
https://www.nascar.com/news-media/20...-this-weekend/

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

EX IMSA stock car racer to run in Europe.
https://www.nascar.com/news-media/20...-this-weekend/

Funny thing about how you put that is that "IMSA sotck cars" could actually become a thing - there have been some rumors flying lately of NASCAR starting a road racing stock car series under the IMSA banner to compete against Trans-Am.

Pretty sure it's just wishful thinking after the rumor of USAC doing something similar(using short track late models) turned out to be nothing, though. But it would be interesting to see what NASCAR would try in order to take on Trans-Am directly.

[jjvincent]

We beat Bobby Labonte in his IMSA Stock Car debut (he was actually driving a Porsche):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOvBVRW_GC8

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

We beat Bobby Labonte in his IMSA Stock Car debut (he was actually driving a Porsche):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOvBVRW_GC8

OH, he actually WAS an IMSA participant? That's....a very poorly documented part of his racing history. Seriously, I actually looked it up before I posted that last comment and found nothing(all I found was a thing about TERRY Labonte's participation in the 1984 Rolex 24).

[jjvincent]

We also had Sterling Marlin drive Billy Hagan's Firebird at Watkins Glen for the 90 minute race we ran in conjunction with the NASCAR race. I remember the interview and he talked about how much is was a real stock car. Even Al Unser Jr (when he was at his peak) drove a Saturn.

As for IMSA trying to do Trans-Am. Remember when Andy Evans tried that? It didn't work too well. On the other hand he sold the Speedvision Series (which was Firehawk which is Conti today) because it wasn't professional enough. Also, Andy did lots of things that made no sense.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

OH, he actually WAS an IMSA participant? That's....a very poorly documented part of his racing history. Seriously, I actually looked it up before I posted that last comment and found nothing(all I found was a thing about TERRY Labonte's participation in the 1984 Rolex 24).

All IMSA support series are a very poorly documented part of racing history.

[Coach Ep]

If IMSA wanted to a 'TransAm' style series why didn't they buy into it? They had the opportunity last year or the year before when Parella (SVRA) basically bought TA.

[jjvincent]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

If IMSA wanted to a 'TransAm' style series why didn't they buy into it? They had the opportunity last year or the year before when Parella (SVRA) basically bought TA.

There's a problem. They have TA3 and TA4. You can't have a class that overlaps GS and another one where a guy can build a brand new Camaro for $100K with no aero and it's just a few seconds off of a factory GT4 car.

[Rcz]

You think they should allow GT3 based pony cars in TA1? Would they be compatible?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

If IMSA wanted to a 'TransAm' style series why didn't they buy into it? They had the opportunity last year or the year before when Parella (SVRA) basically bought TA.

Well....

Originally Posted by jjvincent

There's a problem. They have TA3 and TA4. You can't have a class that overlaps GS and another one where a guy can build a brand new Camaro for $100K with no aero and it's just a few seconds off of a factory GT4 car.

It's more than that. The SCCA still owns the Trans Am name and, from what I hear, still has a lot of control despite them not technically "owning" the day-to-day operations of it anymore. I don't think the SCCA would want to sell off one of it's few remaining proper championships to a competitor like IMSA - all the ones they didn't directly own any aspect of already jumped ship to USAC.

Originally Posted by Rcz

You think they should allow GT3 based pony cars in TA1? Would they be compatible?

Speed-wise they're certainly comaptible - the TA1 cars aren't far off of GT3 pace. Close enough that the driver aids in GT3 account for the majority, if not all, of the difference.

However, TA1 cars cost FAR less both to purchase and operate than GT3.

So TA1 might be a viable option for, say, PWC to help with it's GT field count, but the reverse is...NOT as viable.

[jjvincent]

Trans-Am does not have much value at all. Plus it's licensed out because SCCA Pro really just want's the money, not running it.

GT3 cars have much more downforce, braking and handling. TA1 cars have lots more straight line speed. You'd never be able to balance them correctly without both of them seeing major changes. SCCA has tried to put GT3 cars in GT1 and it doesn't work. I the end TA1 prevails due to the straight line speed and then holding up a GT3 car in the corners. Plus, crash a GT3 car, it'll cost you 10X more to fix as compared to a TA1 car.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

GT3 cars have much more downforce, braking and handling. TA1 cars have lots more straight line speed. You'd never be able to balance them correctly without both of them seeing major changes.

It's more possible than you think. Disabling the driver aids on a GT3 car would in and of itself slow those cars by over a second at most tracks. The ABS alone would cost them a full second.

SCCA has tried to put GT3 cars in GT1 and it doesn't work. I the end TA1 prevails due to the straight line speed and then holding up a GT3 car in the corners.

I'm not aware of any FIA GT3 cars running in SCCA GT1. I recall a Lamborghini Super Trofeo car running at the Runoffs in the past couple years, but that's not actually an FIA GT3 car. I was under the impression that FIA GT3 cars are not legal in SCCA GT1.

When the ALMS ran a combined LMP1/LMP2 class, they had a very similar situation. The P1 cars were faster in a straight line, but the P2 cars outcornered them. The result was actually some quite entertaining battles, with the quick-cornering LMP2 cars generally coming out on top. It didn't help that the sole competitive P1 was Intersport, which tended to not be able to last, but even then they were in most cases being beaten on the track before they collapsed.

So if you could get them running similar lap times, a TA1/GT3 class could produce an interesting show.

Plus, crash a GT3 car, it'll cost you 10X more to fix as compared to a TA1 car.

Thus why GT3 in TransAm is far less viable than TA1 in PWC. If you want to increase car counts you add the LESS expensive car, not the MORE expensive car. :P

[NaBUru38]

Conti Challenge has 2-hour races with two drivers per car.
TransAm has short races with one driver per car.

IMSA could try a TransAm copycat.
Or Nascar could add more road courses to Xfinity.

[Nick6]

SCCA has a number of different GT3 cars classified within GT1. FIA GT3 cars really don't fit into any scca club class, and they are classed into GT1 more or less just to give the owners a place to race at the club level if they chose to.

[jjvincent]

You need to remember, there's a big differential in power between the two. In this day of age where you are penalized for being aggressive, there TA1 cars have a massive advantage. All they have to do is get in front of a GT3 car. do their one move at the end of the straight and then slow down the GT3 car. Even if the GT3 car gets around, the straight line handling of the TA1 car will prevail. You can only drive the wheels off a GT3 for so long until you are beat into submission by that TA1 power.

Throttle back n the TA1 power then you have another issue, the GT3 downforce takes over and will beat the TA1 tires into submission.

In both scenarios, you might have 15 minutes of good racing then that's all. Fans will love it and the competitors will not. Thus you end up with a small field yet again and thus the fans don't like it.

[FormulaFox]

On big long tracks like Road America, sure, you'd likely have that problem. On twistier tracks, well... the ALMS and IMSA have shown in recent years that such things are far from guaranteed. Even when the DP's torque advantage was guaranteeing them half the races, the twistier the track, the worse they did relative to the LMP2s - and there's ample evidence that the problem wasn't simply that the DPs had mroe pwoer, it was thef act that the LMP2s weren't given tires that they could use properly(something I doubt Pirelli would allow to happen).

But there something that I think is being easily forgotten here; The GT3 cars are made as light as they can be - they're very dependent on ballast to get up to their pre-BoP baselines. So there's room to drop weight to make up for the power loss, which can make up for a LOT. And the pre-BoP baselines for GT3 cars are actually close to 300 pounds heavier than TA1 cars - most still come out of BoP around 100 pounds heavier than most of today's TA1 cars.

Power can't overcome EVERYTHING. And since the only series where this lineup would be viable anyway, PWC, is a BoP series this is even MORE true. To make the battle fair, either the GT3 cars would have to give up their driver aids, or TA1 would have to add such(it CAN be done, and though it wouldn't be cheaper, the result would still cost far less than a GT3 car). And that's only the start of it - lightening the BoP weights of a GT3 car and a mild restrictor on the TA1's engines would solve the issues of the power imbalance enough that the scenario you find concerning wouldn't be a serious issue at most tracks.

This of course does require the series to balance it properly, but PWC has shown they're much better about managing that than IMSA is.

Honestly, we keep talking about TA1 like this, but even in this scenario I think the upgraded TA2 concept would be the better option. There's much more room to work with before the cars get too expensive than there is with the TA1 cars, but they DO have an extreme weight disadvantage that needs to be worked around.

[jjvincent]

There's too much of a power discrepancy between the two. No driver want's to be losing a drag race a few times per lap. It gets tiresome and you finally quit. That's the reality. Even in TA1 we see that because if you got the money and have a top dollar motor that gets changed at 50% of the suggested run time, you will do well and tire out the less fortunate teams that don't have the the money to do that. what you don't want is a brand new GT3 car getting spanked by a 1985 Preerless Chassis that has been reskinned 20 times and had old reject parts on it from a front running team that will keep spanking you on every straight and hold you up in the corners.

As for TA2, I just don't understand why you can't eliminate TA1 and call TA2, TA1. No need to make the cars go faster.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

There's too much of a power discrepancy between the two.

Not as big as you think. TA cars today are running around 750-800 horsepower, GT3 cars are running about 600. And these are highly developed engines that can easily produce well over that - they could handle the boost more reliably than the TA2 engines.

No driver want's to be losing a drag race a few times per lap. It gets tiresome and you finally quit. That's the reality.

You're still assuming that they can't be balanced, which isn't necessarily true. The complexity of the GT3 cars is an advantage here - they can have their power raised, their weight increased, whatever is needed. Add 200 horsepower and a few hundred pounds, remove driver aids, and they'd performance in very similar ways.

This is, unfortunately, half the reason they're so expensive. The cost difference is what would really be the issue here, and unless GTE/GT3 Convergence comes along sooner rather than later, and does things right, that's an issue that's likely to not change anytime soon.

As for TA2, I just don't understand why you can't eliminate TA1 and call TA2, TA1. No need to make the cars go faster.

As I said somewhere in the range of 50 times already, it's because people WANT those insanely high-powered and high-speed cars in Trans Am. It's what the series has been known for since the 80s. By not upgrading the cars to fit the category you're asserting them as you're taking away one of the big appeals of the series. As much as TA2 is liked, fans by and large prefer the high-powered wide-bodied monstrosities of the TA1 class.

And the competitors feel little different - there are lot of teams and drivers in TA2 who are only there instead of TA1 because of the price difference.

TA2 is simply not a headliner class for a series like Trans-Am's.

Let me put it this way... Would you throw out LMP2/DPi and make LMP3 the headline class in IMSA without boosting their speed? That's pretty much what you're proposing with the idea of making unmodified TA2 the headliner for Trans Am without improving them. Sure, people like both LMP3 and TA2, but they don't like them THAT much.

[jjvincent]

Add 200 hp to a GT3 car and it becomes an unreliable machine that costs a fortune to operate. You can get 25hp safely but after that, it becomes a point where you are flushing money down the toilet. Thus, GT3 becomes too expensive to run. No need to run it when a 25 year old chassis and an LS motor for $40K will be suffice.

As for TA, who are exactly the people that WANT these high hp cars? It's not the fans (because they don't show up today) it's not the competitors (because they don't show up today) so, is it the hard core ones that want to just watch the races for free on streaming? Trust me, that ain't paying the bills. I don't know who these people are but if you do and know they can pay the bills, then go for it. If not, it's just a dream of the glory days. As we know we can have that with a 60 year old driver ex pro driver driving a 30 year old trans Am car in SVRA.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

Add 200 hp to a GT3 car and it becomes an unreliable machine that costs a fortune to operate. You can get 25hp safely but after that, it becomes a point where you are flushing money down the toilet. Thus, GT3 becomes too expensive to run. No need to run it when a 25 year old chassis and an LS motor for $40K will be suffice.

As for TA, who are exactly the people that WANT these high hp cars? It's not the fans (because they don't show up today) it's not the competitors (because they don't show up today) so, is it the hard core ones that want to just watch the races for free on streaming? Trust me, that ain't paying the bills. I don't know who these people are but if you do and know they can pay the bills, then go for it. If not, it's just a dream of the glory days. As we know we can have that with a 60 year old driver ex pro driver driving a 30 year old trans Am car in SVRA.

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Not as big as you think. TA cars today are running around 750-800 horsepower, GT3 cars are running about 600. And these are highly developed engines that can easily produce well over that - they could handle the boost more reliably than the TA2 engines.



You're still assuming that they can't be balanced, which isn't necessarily true. The complexity of the GT3 cars is an advantage here - they can have their power raised, their weight increased, whatever is needed. Add 200 horsepower and a few hundred pounds, remove driver aids, and they'd performance in very similar ways.

This is, unfortunately, half the reason they're so expensive. The cost difference is what would really be the issue here, and unless GTE/GT3 Convergence comes along sooner rather than later, and does things right, that's an issue that's likely to not change anytime soon.



As I said somewhere in the range of 50 times already, it's because people WANT those insanely high-powered and high-speed cars in Trans Am. It's what the series has been known for since the 80s. By not upgrading the cars to fit the category you're asserting them as you're taking away one of the big appeals of the series. As much as TA2 is liked, fans by and large prefer the high-powered wide-bodied monstrosities of the TA1 class.

And the competitors feel little different - there are lot of teams and drivers in TA2 who are only there instead of TA1 because of the price difference.

TA2 is simply not a headliner class for a series like Trans-Am's.

Let me put it this way... Would you throw out LMP2/DPi and make LMP3 the headline class in IMSA without boosting their speed? That's pretty much what you're proposing with the idea of making unmodified TA2 the headliner for Trans Am without improving them. Sure, people like both LMP3 and TA2, but they don't like them THAT much.

Exactly what jjvincent said, who are these fans? It's not like TransAm had people beating down the doors to attend the races or teams to run TA1. As for the race, great they're wide bat guano crazy cars but there's one car and the rest of the field. Ok, now maybe 2 but Dyson and Francis could have started a lap after and still won at Road Atlanta. They both sound spun at T1 from Francis pushing Dyson wide and yet I believe they were still up a lap on EVERYONE. The TA2 race was actually a race, TA1 was a romp and boring after the noise got to be too much and my ears were bleeding. If they don't find a TA1.5 I don't think TA1 is long for the world.

[Coach Ep]

Frances jr. will soon move up the Pro ladder and Dyson will be done with after winning the overall title (just so he can add his name to the long list of famous champs) which leaves the rest of the TA runners to continue - like they've done for quite a while. TransAm has few fans and TA just a handful or two customers aka entrants. As long as those old, slow and rich folks continue to throw money at it, the class will live on. And TransAm is fine with that. The series is pro only in name - but quite a bit of fun for a fancy club series!

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

Add 200 hp to a GT3 car and it becomes an unreliable machine that costs a fortune to operate. You can get 25hp safely but after that, it becomes a point where you are flushing money down the toilet.

GT3 engines are capable of far more than you give them credit for. They're often talked about as the basis for low(relatively) cost LMP1 engines for a reason.

That said....

Thus, GT3 becomes too expensive to run. No need to run it when a 25 year old chassis and an LS motor for $40K will be suffice.

While you disagree on the reasoning for it, you seem to be ignoring that I'm making the same point on this matter.

As for TA, who are exactly the people that WANT these high hp cars? It's not the fans (because they don't show up today) it's not the competitors (because they don't show up today) so,

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Exactly what jjvincent said, who are these fans? It's not like TransAm had people beating down the doors to attend the races or teams to run TA1.

The Trans Am fanbase may not be as big as it once was, but it does still exist. Trans Am lost a lot of it's following thanks to mismanagement in the wake of the manufacturer departure in the late 90s, true, but to act like there isn't a fanbase is...well, ignorant. Same with acting like there aren't any competitors, because the fact of the matter is if there werne't anyway, the series wouldn't be running.

Trans Am may not be up to it's former glory, but to say nobody's watching and nobody's participating is just...wrong. ESPECIALLY on the participation side.

As for the race, great they're wide bat guano crazy cars but there's one car and the rest of the field. Ok, now maybe 2 but Dyson and Francis could have started a lap after and still won at Road Atlanta. They both sound spun at T1 from Francis pushing Dyson wide and yet I believe they were still up a lap on EVERYONE. The TA2 race was actually a race, TA1 was a romp and boring after the noise got to be too much and my ears were bleeding.

And thus we get to the part of my point that it's starting to feel like is being DELIBERATELY ignored.

We got a little sidetracked with whether or not you could make TA1 and GT3 race alongside each other viably, but that really was ignoring the original point of the comparison to begin with. It wasn't really supposed to be about whether it was possible, or even if it was a good idea, it was supposed to underline the issue that's keeping the TA1 participation down: It's too expensive for Trans Am's current situation.

Compared to a GT3 car, a TA1 car is a steal. But it's just plain too pricey for where it IS racing, and that's reflected in the very matter you bring up - there are only four or five(though RA didn't show it) real competitors in TA1.

Yet in TA2, there are MANY teams that will tell you they'd love to be in TA1, but the budget for it simply doens't exist. Ask the fans that do attend and watch, and the majority will tell you that as much as they love TA2, they also want to see TA1 become a big deal again

Which brings us to this...

If they don't find a TA1.5 I don't think TA1 is long for the world.

...which is a huge part of my point. Trans Am needs TA1, yet it's unsustainable in current situation. Thus, what you term as "TA1.5" becomes something that needs to be sought out.

It's not a problem just for TA, either - GT1 is one of the SCCA's weakest classes in participation(you woudn't know that from the Runoffs last year, but the entry requirements have been relaxed so much that NO class looked bad last year, even the eons everyone knows are on borrowed time), yet VERY few want to see it go away.

The is of upgrading TA2 cars, which I am now going to refer to as "TA1.5" for the sake of simplicity(though "TA1.8" would be more accurate to the potential of the upgrade :P ), has benefits beyond just the Trans Am Series. At the very least it could breathe life into a fading club class, and if the SCCA doesn't hold onto it too jealously it can be option for other series struggling with car counts that want cars that are near-GT3 quick but without the price tag.

TA1.5 is a necessary direction.

Let's put it like this; TA1 would be in great shape if it could get...four or five more competitive full-time entries. Do you really think losing four or five cars would hurt TA2? (especially if, as rumor suggests, the TA West Coast championship will be shut down after this season)

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

GT3 engines are capable of far more than you give them credit for. They're often talked about as the basis for low(relatively) cost LMP1 engines for a reason.

That said....



While you disagree on the reasoning for it, you seem to be ignoring that I'm making the same point on this matter.






The Trans Am fanbase may not be as big as it once was, but it does still exist. Trans Am lost a lot of it's following thanks to mismanagement in the wake of the manufacturer departure in the late 90s, true, but to act like there isn't a fanbase is...well, ignorant. Same with acting like there aren't any competitors, because the fact of the matter is if there werne't anyway, the series wouldn't be running.

Trans Am may not be up to it's former glory, but to say nobody's watching and nobody's participating is just...wrong. ESPECIALLY on the participation side.



And thus we get to the part of my point that it's starting to feel like is being DELIBERATELY ignored.

Yet in TA2, there are MANY teams that will tell you they'd love to be in TA1, but the budget for it simply doens't exist. Ask the fans that do attend and watch, and the majority will tell you that as much as they love TA2, they also want to see TA1 become a big deal again

Which brings us to this...



...which is a huge part of my point. Trans Am needs TA1, yet it's unsustainable in current situation. Thus, what you term as "TA1.5" becomes something that needs to be sought out.

It's not a problem just for TA, either - GT1 is one of the SCCA's weakest classes in participation(you woudn't know that from the Runoffs last year, but the entry requirements have been relaxed so much that NO class looked bad last year, even the eons everyone knows are on borrowed time), yet VERY few want to see it go away.

The is of upgrading TA2 cars, which I am now going to refer to as "TA1.5" for the sake of simplicity(though "TA1.8" would be more accurate to the potential of the upgrade ), has benefits beyond just the Trans Am Series. At the very least it could breathe life into a fading club class, and if the SCCA doesn't hold onto it too jealously it can be option for other series struggling with car counts that want cars that are near-GT3 quick but without the price tag.

TA1.5 is a necessary direction.

So everything you've said above is exactly what I'd said with a TA1.5 so what part are we ignoring? The part where TA1 just isn't sustainable, sorry but I READ a lot about the series and almost to a driver the word is 2 years at most and they're done, TA1 is just too expensive to justify racing. The part where TA2 isn't the future, well think you've answered, and the teams have definitely answered, there's no interest in running a TA1 program. Sorry, saying we'd love to but the budget means there's no chance. I'd love to run but the budget, wow there's one more driver added to the list of not happening either. As for attendance, sorry but Road Atlanta drew over 3 times as many for Ferrari clienti corse day and other tracks have reported miniscule to negligible attendance. And the streaming had been reported as barely reaching fans as expected. Even the owners have said things have to change and Tony is basically bankrolling the whole thing like GrandAm. It can't, and won't, last. The few can wish all they want but a TransAm is on its way out unless they realize first they're support racing, second they better be CHEAP, and third they are not a pro series any longer. It's Porsche GT3 for the elder crowd of drivers

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So everything you've said above is exactly what I'd said with a TA1.5 so what part are we ignoring?

I should have made more clear that comments about points being ignored were directed at jjvincent rather than you - he's repeatedly asked the question of "why not just run TA2 unmodified" despite my explanations that it creates the feeling that he's deliberately ignoring my statements on the matter.

Sorry, saying we'd love to but the budget means there's no chance.

I think we both know that it's only "no chance" is only if the needed budget to run a class doesn't change - those teams that want to run TA1 probably have plenty of money to run pricier cars, just not up to TA1 levels. Thus, TA1.5.

As for attendance, sorry but Road Atlanta drew over 3 times as many for Ferrari clienti corse day and other tracks have reported miniscule to negligible attendance.

I'm not arguing the size of the remaining fanbase, I'm noting the fanabse DOES exist while focusing on what that fanbase WANTS, and what it will take to grow it - Which happen to be the same thing I've been outlining to appeal to the remaining fans since they're also the thing the helps makes the series unique, and standing out from the crowd is the best way to try and get eyeballs right now. Racing is increasingly becoming a niche sport, which makes copycatting a poor idea since people will stick to the version they prefer. People are more likely to pay attention to multiple series when each series offers something unique.

TransAm is on its way out unless they realize first they're support racing, second they better be CHEAP,

No arguments on those, but those don't change what people expect out of TA, which has been my entire point - thus, TA1.5.

and third they are not a pro series any longer.

Half agree, half disagree. TA has too much going for it to classify it as a glorified club series, but it's definitely not a full pro series anymore.

There's nothing wrong with them believing it is a pro series, but they have to understand that they're only SEMI-pro at this point, so they need to balance that out a bit. They need the attitude of when the series first started - it was a place for club-legal cars to run as a touring championship that could serve as a platform in which they could pit their mettle against any pros that wanted to come by.