Minardi Team USA (merged)

[Last2LiftOff]

If there is an amalgamation CWS & IRL or, if IRL just folds - not that I'm suggesting that's an alternative - Stoddart's in for a song. For all I know, this could be a very good time to buy a Champcar franchise.

[BootsOntheSide]

Good point there L2LO - if there is only one series in 2008 (or 2007, the IRL grid still looks pretty thin behind Ganassi, Penske and AGR) Paul will go into it with a place, with experienced people around him. It would be worth more than he's paid for it, no doubt.

[icemachine]

2007 is rather unlikely for a merge I think, unless Panoz can nearly double their production

[dedalus5150]

Originally Posted by icemachine

2007 is impossible for a merge

Obvious typo fixed

[indycool]

Luke, KK was involved in announcing Cedric into the team and was active in that role. I've never heard of these celebrities actually putting money into these deals except maybe Newman. The Cosbys, Carmelos, Gene Hackmans, whatever through the years have offered use of their names as owners in an effort to secure outside sponsorship.

I would doubt that the usual teams don't need the financial help for '07 that have in the past. If nothing else, more will need help because they MUST spend more -- $300,000 per car over what they spent last year.

As far as more cars on the grid, time will tell. Coyne hasn't announced his plans until race week opener the past two seasons. We have a LONG wait to tell.

[Snrub]

In discussing Minardi perfomance The point about the quality of the drivers plays a big role. If we look at 2002 and compare Mark Webber to Toyota and Jaguar we can see that they were pretty competitive. Webber had a much better finishing record than McNish and De la Rosa so I'll show the average finishing position when they actually finished the race:
Webber: 11
Salo: 9.4
McNish: 10.8
De La Rosa: 10

Since we're showing the successful finishing average, I don't think it's a stretch to say that Minardi's results weren't dissimilar to Toyota's and to a lesser extent Jaguar. We're comparing at the time a $40-50M budget to ones that are ~$350M and ~$200M.

If Stoddart can bring less than 1/10th of the level of Minardi F1 money into his CC team it stands to reason that we should expect some success.

[SALEEN S7R]

Make no mistake, Minardi will do a good job in Champcar. How good is yet to be seen but I would expect them to be one of the top 4 teams by the end of the season and to be serious title contenders in 2008. In any other series other than F1 Minardi would be considered a big fish.

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Make no mistake, Minardi will do a good job in Champcar. How good is yet to be seen but I would expect them to be one of the top 4 teams by the end of the season and to be serious title contenders in 2008. In any other series other than F1 Minardi would be considered a big fish.

Should certainly hope so, as I think it's fair to say that CTE was probably the 3rd best performing team this season as it stands. To be out of the top 4 can only mean falling backwards.

[SALEEN S7R]

Unless of course they dont make it as far as the top 4 in the first place you mean?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

.

I would doubt that the usual teams don't need the financial help for '07 that have in the past. If nothing else, more will need help because they MUST spend more -- $300,000 per car over what they spent last year.

Wouldn't say so in that the cost of keeping the Lolas fed and watered and in tip top condition was becoming more expensive that buying a new $220K car that requires less maintenance and parts costs are 2/3's to 1/2 the cost of Lola parts.

[norman-normal]

Indy, do know what KK is paying out? Could it be that you assume he does because you know Tony George has for such a long time?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

Indy, do know what KK is paying out? Could it be that you assume he does because you know Tony George has for such a long time?

Yes excellent question. What is he paying out if he is at all and to whom?

We know the irl burned though $300 million by the end of 2003 as per mr. nation quoted in the indystar.

[Snrub]

CC has kept a tight lid on its outlay of cash. I suspect NDAs are a routine part of the way they operate the business. I've never heard any reports of leaks, etc. The only numbers thrown around seem to be estimated guesses.

Think about the $220k per car figure for a moment. Now consider the costs of something like a competition viper or Ford's FR500 "man racer." The cost difference isn't that great compared to the performance.

[indycool]

The cost was publicly stated as $300,000 per car.

[CARacer]

Originally Posted by indycool

The cost was publicly stated as $300,000 per car.

From: http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...0509/0/ZONES04

"Each Panoz DP01 car cost $220,000, nearly half that of its predecessor. It is the first new car for the series since 2002. The plan is to have 35 built before the season begins."

[JohnSSC]

That is $220K for the car. Not to oversimplify, but Panoz is building the chassis. The engine would be extra. I am thinking this would bring the total closer to the $300K mark not including spares: suspension bits, electrical, bodywork, etc.

This raises the question though that if it is just so darned inexpensive, why are teams choosing more expensive or equivalent expenditure Series to run in rather than CC? What would an all-up ALMS car cost (such as the Audi)?

[indycool]

The Lola was reported to be $400,000 new. This says "35 percent" less and I can't find links but the cost comparison included "matching" the IRL car price with a cheaper lease by Cosworth than Honda. And 35 percent less than $400,000 is not $220,000.

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/N...le.asp?ID=9727

[enemy-ace]

Originally Posted by indycool

This says "35 percent" less

Approximately.

[JohnSSC]

Being as that is one year old, I am sure that inflation and development costs have whittled the 35% figure down a bit. 35% of $400K is $160K - I think we can figure that a roller is going to run in the $240 - $260K range (approximately).

Even adjusting for inflation so that the savings is 30% that puts a roller in the $280K territory.

[norman-normal]

How about this: lets just say that its going to cost $800,000. for each DP01, and there will probably only be two teams ready to race at Vegas (because the repo man got all the other DP01s) so they will probably call off the race and:
CC will go bankrupt!!!
If we play our cards right, we may be able to watch the coronation of His Majesty Tony George as King of all open wheel racing on the major networks. WOW!!! I can't wait

[enemy-ace]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Even adjusting for inflation so that the savings is 30% that puts a roller in the $280K territory.

I don't think there was a 5% inflation increase over the year. Probably more in the 1-1.25% range.
Either way the new chassis package is to offer a savings over the long haul, as it was intended to do.

[JohnSSC]

How about this: "Can we just discuss the relative cost of the new package without mentioning any coronations?"

The "true" costs of racing are always somewhat hazy (see F1) and the actual price tags associated with the new CC package actually make for a rather interesting discussion' particularly in the sense of cost-benefit analysis. What does CC cost? Is ALMS a better investment or worse? Why or why not? Is IRL attractively priced? Is the new CC package more or less expensive than running the Lola? Why or why not?

These are things that as fans, we really don't know because the last few years (and for much of the time when CC was CART) there was so much manufacturer $$ involved that teams really were spending Honda/Toyota money and no one was really concerned with cost.

Just because there is a curiosity here does not mean that translates to automatic criticism of CC. Could we please have just one thread where the opinions of the personalities involved or the imagined agendas of those posting is not made the topic? I really could care less if TG or KK is about to be made "King" of anything...

[indycool]

Good post and points, John. Cost is also determined by other factors, such as customs duties (Lola has 'em, Panoz does not), taxes, exactly what a "roller" INCLUDES, cost to operate and exactly how all of that figures into what the price is for what you get.

[norman-normal]

Yes John, I have noticed that you are completely unbiased, you too Indy; 'a friend in need is a friend indeed!

[JohnSSC]

I think we have to note that Panoz has a rather tall order here just trying to get enough cars to the teams that have ordered them. With the season starting sooner, rather than later, have they given any indication as to how well they will be able to provide spares such as bodywork?

I know they have targeted completing 35 cars but inevitably there are going to be new noses/sidepods/rear wings needed along with suspension bits and bobs. Once testing/racing starts in earnest folks will be heading to the spare parts bin!