GT2 replaced by GT3 ..... ACO new idea

[supercarS7]

Would the balance be done by power to weight ratio then? For example, would Porsche race the 997 GT3 or their 997 GT2 tt? Would corvette have to race the regular 6.2L engine or the Z06?

[AU N EGL]

Could the "super cars" be used to bring in the Japanees in their Super GT 500 and 300 cars too?

[ger80]

Why not using GT300 regulations from SuperGT?
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...the-world.html

Vemac GT300 car “It is about £500,000 to buy a fully running and developed car, and then about £250,000 to run it for the season"

Not really cheap, but it works at least in Japan .... Additonal that would result iin one GT class thats used in the US (ALMS), Europe (LMS & FIA GT) and Japan (SuperGT). Think what would be attractive for mostly all car companies .... Develop once - run anywhere

[Rodger Davies]

whilst the big three arenas having the same rules is an attractive proposition, the SuperGT cars are not GTs, they are prototypes with silhouette shapes pretty much and I hope they won't adopt that here any time soon (and yes, I'm not keen on the MC12 either).

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

whilst the big three arenas having the same rules is an attractive proposition, the SuperGT cars are not GTs, they are prototypes with silhouette shapes pretty much and I hope they won't adopt that here any time soon (and yes, I'm not keen on the MC12 either).

You are talking about GT500 (and these aren't prototypes either, the passenger area has to be the same as on the roadcar). GT300 aren't prototypes at all.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

whilst the big three arenas having the same rules is an attractive proposition, the SuperGT cars are not GTs, they are prototypes with silhouette shapes pretty much and I hope they won't adopt that here any time soon (and yes, I'm not keen on the MC12 either).

and what do you think the Corvette C6R and AM DBR9 is? Very much the same, purpose built race cars, not converted road cars but purpose built race cars with silhouette bodies on. Just very good bodies.


If my souces are close, the C6R was or is $1,000,000 to purchase NEW, if you could one. And as of two years ago the AM DBR9 was $960,000 to purchase new. Again if you could even purchase either one new.

Even the older ProReive Ferrari 550 was $500,000. Yes these 550s were street cars stripped to the frame and totally rebuilt by ProDrive. With a ProDrive built engine.

Those prices were just to purchase the car new, not maintain for the season let alone get too all the races.

So the TOP end of GT is very VERY expesive, no matter where you race.

I think we all are very interested in the new GT car and race rules. Plus to see were some of the older cars will fit in.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

You are talking about GT500 (and these aren't prototypes either, the passenger area has to be the same as on the roadcar). GT300 aren't prototypes at all.

Everything else is virtually free however, hence why the Nissan GTR has next to nothing in common with the roadcar, including it's trademark 4WD and V6 Turbo engine. Even GT300 allows Ford GT's with detuned F1 engines and revised Daytona Prototypes.

No top level GT, touring or rally car is built from a stripped down roadcar any longer, they're all purpose built, GT1, GT2, WRC, S2000, S1600 are all direct descendents of the roadcar, with varrying levels of freedom to develop the car.

Manufactuers have already pushed the cost of GT1 development through the roof, so God knows what the costs would be with the freedoms allowed in GT300, nevermind GT500.

[Pete Fenelon]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

You are talking about GT500 (and these aren't prototypes either, the passenger area has to be the same as on the roadcar). GT300 aren't prototypes at all.

Tell that to whoever homologated the Mooncraft Shiden... er, Riley Daytona Prototype... in SuperGT!

[FIRE]

IMO they should create one GT class. Use GT2 cars but give them a bit more power:

Porsche
Ferrari
BMW
Corvette (Riley or P&M)
Aston Martin (Prodrive)
Ford GT (Matech or Doran)
Spyker

And maybe:
Maserati (Vitaphone/Maserati)
Dodge
Jaguar (Apex)


And create a championship for factory and independent drivers (like in WTCC). Or for pro and am drivers.

[geeteeone]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Even the older ProReive Ferrari 550 was $500,000. Yes these 550s were street cars stripped to the frame and totally rebuilt by ProDrive. With a ProDrive built engine.

Most of the Prodrive 550s were never sold outright. They were owned by Frederic Dor's Care Racing, who funded the Prodrive 550 project, and then leased to the respective teams.

This is actually a very good way of doing things, very cost effective for everyone, assuming that someone is wealthy enough to fund the initial build process.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by JAG

Even GT300 allows Ford GT's with detuned F1 engines and revised Daytona Prototypes.

I think we were talking about adapting the regulations for cars actually built for GT300 and not the "also allowed are cars from the following series" part.

[ger80]

Originally Posted by JAG

Manufactuers have already pushed the cost of GT1 development through the roof, so God knows what the costs would be with the freedoms allowed in GT300, nevermind GT500.

Top teams "waste" a lot of money in Indycars too, and everything is fixed there... You cant avoid "wasteing" of money for car improvement. If "they" can change the car itself, they go testing and improve the setup. If you forbid testing, they go on a 7pod rig. If you forbid 7pod rig, they buy multi million dollar computer for FEM/CFD calucaltions ....

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by ger80

Top teams "waste" a lot of money in Indycars too, and everything is fixed there... You cant avoid "wasteing" of money for car improvement. If "they" can change the car itself, they go testing and improve the setup. If you forbid testing, they go on a 7pod rig. If you forbid 7pod rig, they buy multi million dollar computer for FEM/CFD calucaltions ....

Waist money ? Please define your idea of waist? Dont think teams have money to waist these days.

What is wrong with using a 7 post shaker or wind tunnel or FEM/CFD computations?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by ger80

Top teams "waste" a lot of money in Indycars too, and everything is fixed there... You cant avoid "wasteing" of money for car improvement. If "they" can change the car itself, they go testing and improve the setup. If you forbid testing, they go on a 7pod rig. If you forbid 7pod rig, they buy multi million dollar computer for FEM/CFD calucaltions ....

The goalposts are always moving, but quite obviously manufactuers have rejected GT1, yet are still investing in GT2, i.e BMW.

Manufactuers have deceided a GT1 budget is better spent going for overall wins in LMP1 or spending less on a GT2 program.

This is afterall GT racing, the closer the cars are to stock, the better, so long as they are safe, reliable, and as quick as the ACO/FIA desire.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

This is afterall GT racing, the closer the cars are to stock, the better, so long as they are safe, reliable, and as quick as the ACO/FIA desire.

HA- Is it possible to be slower ?

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by FIRE

IMO they should create one GT class. Use GT2 cars but give them a bit more power:

Porsche
Ferrari
BMW
Corvette (Riley or P&M)
Aston Martin (Prodrive)
Ford GT (Matech or Doran)
Spyker

And maybe:
Maserati (Vitaphone/Maserati)
Dodge
Jaguar (Apex)


And create a championship for factory and independent drivers (like in WTCC). Or for pro and am drivers.

MC12s competing against Spykers? Surely that doesn't seem right...

[ger80]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Waist money ? Please define your idea of waist? Dont think teams have money to waist these days.

What is wrong with using a 7 post shaker or wind tunnel or FEM/CFD computations?

Nothing is wrong with all this things, the point is only that "big teams" always will invest as much money as possible to win and no regulations can stop this and at the end the new cars will not be cheaper to run than today ....

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by ger80

Nothing is wrong with all this things, the point is only that "big teams" always will invest as much money as possible to win and no regulations can stop this and at the end the new cars will not be cheaper to run than today ....

Correct. and why should cars be less expesive to run ? No race car is buy and drive and drive and drive and drive.

almost all race cars when purchased by a team are taken apart down to the frame then rebuilt by the team, just too assure proper build and put in the special items each team wants.

Engines only last one, two races or maybe 30 hours if lucky. Same with tranmissions and diffs. Parts have short life spans when raced so they need to be replaced often.

Any top level team that does NOT USE WIND TUNNEL time has lost the race before they take the grid.

Racing is not cheap

[deggis]

Doesn't this also mean that after 2010 champions become really world (and European) champions? To a general audience that's a big difference to "GT1 champion". I don't think WTCC would be so popular if it was just "FIA Touring Car Championship".

Then again, that's a bit lame because not all the best teams are in FIA GT, like planetlemans.com summary of the press conf. said they still don't want factory teams. Which on the other hand is nice, that will keep certain manufacturers more attached to ALMS and LM.

.

[AU N EGL]

What means more to the average person, Winning the LeMans 24 Hour or World GT Champion?


Many ppl believe that any race series that does not accept manufactures teams will still be 2nd rate racing

[Aslak Vind]

I personally miss the BPR GT Championship, with the Ferrari F40 LM and McLaren F1 GTR. It was scarily expensive. but jolly good fun.

But the size of the bills was the reason behind the demise of the serie.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

What means more to the average person, Winning the LeMans 24 Hour or World GT Champion?

It's not possible to win 24LM with a GT1 car... a class win means a lot less. I didn't talk about Le Mans win, I simply said "World GT Championship" is better and more recognizable than "FIA GT Championship" and "he's a world champion in GT" is better than "he won a class championship in FIA GT".

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Many ppl believe that any race series that does not accept manufactures teams will still be 2nd rate racing

Well, some believe that any series that accepts manufacturer teams will be in big trouble sooner or later... So far the only real exception to that rule has been F1.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by deggis

It's not possible to win 24LM with a GT1 car... a class win means a lot less. I didn't talk about Le Mans win, I simply said "World GT Championship" is better and more recognizable than "FIA GT Championship" and "he's a world champion in GT" is better than "he won a class championship in FIA GT".

First off, there are 4 seperate races going on, on track, at the same time, at Le Mans. The winner in every class, wins Le Mans. The expectation that a GT car is to win overall is far fetched, at best. To discount the feat of winning class at Le Mans is utterly ludicrous. The competitors at Le Mans are the best in the world! I frankly do not see how someone could be declared 'World Champion' without competing in the pinnacle Sports Car race in the world!

L.P.

[supercarS7]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

First off, there are 4 seperate races going on, on track, at the same time, at Le Mans. The winner in every class, wins Le Mans. The expectation that a GT car is to win overall is far fetched, at best. To discount the feat of winning class at Le Mans is utterly ludicrous. The competitors at Le Mans are the best in the world! I frankly do not see how someone could be declared 'World Champion' without competing in the pinnacle Sports Car race in the world!

L.P.

Why is it when a team wins the world series they are declared world champions? probably same set of logic.

Le Mans is more like an all-star game. Some people make it on legitimate performance and some for "other" reasons. that;s not to say that the teams that make it for "other" reasons arent worthy.