[BTCC] Brands Hatch Rd4/5/6

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Well said, RWD may have scored 1-2-3-4-5 but only on paper it looks like a total domination of RWD cars. Actually Cammish and Butcher seemed one of the fastest drivers of the weekend, which is particularly impressive given the former had quite a lot of weight onboard and still was able to be in the mix.

How much of the 'RWD advantage' was down to the heat? The FWD cars would presumably have been working their front tyres a lot harderand with the extreme heat maybe that lead to the problems? Also the engine failures (again heat related?) seem to have struck potential front running FWD cars.

I suspect as we get to the later rounds (Brands in November ) you'll see the pendulum swing the other way and the FWD cars have the advantage as the RWD can't get the fronts warmed up.

All supposition of course but this is the BTCC so you can be sure something will happen to keep it close (the hand of Gow).

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Could quite easily swap Sutton for Butcher in that sentence.

Could you? Butcher originally set his fastest time on lap 3 which was disallowed for track limits, but his next lap secured pole. They never showed much of Butchers laps, but he completed just 6 more laps after getting pole. Sutton completed 12 more laps after setting his fastest and they did show them online and they weren't tidy at all, I was watching his lap times on TSL as they showed it, those subsequent times would have been back of the grid stuff.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

Could you? Butcher originally set his fastest time on lap 3 which was disallowed for track limits, but his next lap secured pole. They never showed much of Butchers laps, but he completed just 6 more laps after getting pole. Sutton completed 12 more laps after setting his fastest and they did show them online and they weren't tidy at all, I was watching his lap times on TSL as they showed it, those subsequent times would have been back of the grid stuff.

Yes - Butcher's best time was set on his first flying (legitimate) lap, so everything else through the session was slower. His 2nd and 3rd best times would have been back of the grid stuff. Sutton's times as the session progressed were closer to his best than Butcher's were to his.

I'm not saying Sutton didn't get slower in his later laps - just that he is not the only one who had the same drop in performance.

It's also shortsighted to focus on the amount of laps completed - the RWD cars tend to complete a second lap after their pit-out to bring the tyres up to temp, whereas the FWD cars get theirs up on the first time round.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Was it just Motorbase who had failures - or did any of the other retirements come from tyres?

If it was just Motorbase, it would suggest the problem was with one team's use of the tyres, rather than a tyre problem itself?

It wasn't just Motorbase, Hill also had a puncture and fairly sure they weren't the only ones. Motorbase reckon something had damaged Butcher's tyre in race 1.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Yes - Butcher's best time was set on his first flying (legitimate) lap, so everything else through the session was slower. His 2nd and 3rd best times would have been back of the grid stuff. Sutton's times as the session progressed were closer to his best than Butcher's were to his.

I'm not saying Sutton didn't get slower in his later laps - just that he is not the only one who had the same drop in performance.

It's also shortsighted to focus on the amount of laps completed - the RWD cars tend to complete a second lap after their pit-out to bring the tyres up to temp, whereas the FWD cars get theirs up on the first time round.

Sutton's times were way off his fastest time. Butcher only set two "flying" laps after his fastest, the rest were in laps or out laps. One time was 2.3 seconds off the other was 1.7 seconds off. Sutton however set 3 "flying laps" after his fastest, two of which they did show online and were very scrappy, those three times were 3+, 4+ and 5+ seconds over his fastest time.
RWD cars stay out after there first lap, as they already have heat in the tyres, the fwd cars have an out lap, returning straight back to the pits to have the wheels swapped front to back, then another outlap then they start attempting to set their times.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

Sutton however set 3 "flying laps" after his fastest, two of which they did show online and were very scrappy, those three times were 3+, 4+ and 5+ seconds over his fastest time.

Are you pulling these figures out of thin air to try and prove a point?

You questioned whether Butcher's lap times could be described as getting slower and slower, but have now confirmed that he was 1.7s and 2.3s slower as the session went on.

Yet for Sutton, you claim 3+, 4+ and 5+ seconds.
Sutton's 4 other flying laps (4, 8, 14 & 15) were 0.571s, 0.109s, 1.016s and 1.403s slower respectively.

His second out laps were 4.508s, 4.086s and 5.160s. That is consistent with the rest of the RWD cars, who after an out lap are typically in the 5+secs slower bracket before starting a flying lap.

Which laps are you claiming to be Sutton's 3 flying laps at 3+, 4+, 5+ seconds?

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Are you pulling these figures out of thin air to try and prove a point?

You questioned whether Butcher's lap times could be described as getting slower and slower, but have now confirmed that he was 1.7s and 2.3s slower as the session went on.

Yet for Sutton, you claim 3+, 4+ and 5+ seconds.
Sutton's 4 other flying laps (4, 8, 14 & 15) were 0.571s, 0.109s, 1.016s and 1.403s slower respectively.

His second out laps were 4.508s, 4.086s and 5.160s. That is consistent with the rest of the RWD cars, who after an out lap are typically in the 5+secs slower bracket before starting a flying lap.

No I am not pulling the numbers out of the air, they are from the pdf on TSL timing. They are also two of the laps they showed during qualifying, they weren't out laps.
My original statement was that Suttons times were getting slower, a consequence of his scrappy driving as shown during the qualifying. You just chose to ignore that bit and accused Butcher of doing similar, but there is no evidence that Butcher's driving became scrappy in his subsequent laps. So no the same can't be said for Butcher and or other drivers.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

No I am not pulling the numbers out of the air, they are from the pdf on TSL timing. They are also two of the laps they showed during qualifying, they weren't out laps.
My original statement was that Suttons times were getting slower, a consequence of his scrappy driving as shown during the qualifying. You just chose to ignore that bit and accused Butcher of doing similar, but there is no evidence that Butcher's driving became scrappy in his subsequent laps. So no the same can't be said for Butcher and or other drivers.

You are misrepresenting what I said:

I said you could swap Sutton with Butcher in the sentence (which is true, Butcher was pushing too hard which resulted in a lap being deleted, then got slower during the session):

Originally Posted by RS67

Sutton was pushing the car too hard, his lap times suffered as a result and he got slower and slower.

You then said the following, but haven't been able to confirm which laps they were:

Originally Posted by RS67

Sutton however set 3 "flying laps" after his fastest, two of which they did show online and were very scrappy, those three times were 3+, 4+ and 5+ seconds over his fastest time.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by RS67

It wasn't just Motorbase, Hill also had a puncture and fairly sure they weren't the only ones. Motorbase reckon something had damaged Butcher's tyre in race 1.

I recollect a #HARD car with a puncture too; could it simply have bern a case of "pushing the envelope" in terms of setup vs. what the manufacturer recommended setup wise? Or maybe Butcher, Hill, OJ etc. all managed to find a rough bit of kerb that everybody else missed? It it were endemic in the design or a result of temperature I would have expected more. Or simply the odd few weaker tyres - Friday afternoon jobs! - luck of the draw with Motorbase having just walked under a ladder!

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by RS67

Could you? Butcher originally set his fastest time on lap 3 which was disallowed for track limits, but his next lap secured pole. They never showed much of Butchers laps, but he completed just 6 more laps after getting pole. Sutton completed 12 more laps after setting his fastest and they did show them online and they weren't tidy at all, I was watching his lap times on TSL as they showed it, those subsequent times would have been back of the grid stuff.

There was a pattern to Sutton's subsequent flying laps:

Green first sector
Green second sector
Run wide at Westfield
Lose loads of time

[bella]

you guys really know how to turn someone off an entire sport.

no disrespect.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

You are misrepresenting what I said:

I said you could swap Sutton with Butcher in the sentence (which is true, Butcher was pushing too hard which resulted in a lap being deleted, then got slower during the session):


You then said the following, but haven't been able to confirm which laps they were:

Butcher had his first flying lap disallowed for exceeding track limits, his very next lap was his pole setting lap, approximately 0.5 seconds quicker, not slower. He then returned to the pits, I assume changed tyres, did an out lap, back in pits swapped wheels around, another out lap, he completed two laps which were slower, then returned to the pits for the rest of the session.
As for confirming Suttons laps which were scrappy and over driven, I don't know how more obvious I can make it than say they were the ones shown live, you couldn't miss them the arse end of the car was all over the place and Tim Harvey even commented on how untidy it was, and just when they expected him to go for a good clean lap he pitted after having a time disallowed.

[3marinadrive]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Who are the better young drivers?

I can give you ten who are younger and better. Matt is still very good, but like anyone in life at 53 you are not as good as you were

[3marinadrive]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

People are just noticing now that Harvey plays favourites? Snetterton he spent the entire weekend telling us how amazing Plato was for NOT driving into other cars, and then he immediately drove into Sutton, only for Harvey to make excuses.

He should've been out the com box years ago. He isn't capable of commentating fairly.

Sutton, Cammish..they are his real favourites. He has managed Cammish in the past and got him the Nationwide sponsorship in Porsche so no surprise. Notice how he has his favourites and some he just ignores.

[3marinadrive]

Originally Posted by RS67

Butcher had his first flying lap disallowed for exceeding track limits, his very next lap was his pole setting lap, approximately 0.5 seconds quicker, not slower. He then returned to the pits, I assume changed tyres, did an out lap, back in pits swapped wheels around, another out lap, he completed two laps which were slower, then returned to the pits for the rest of the session.
As for confirming Suttons laps which were scrappy and over driven, I don't know how more obvious I can make it than say they were the ones shown live, you couldn't miss them the arse end of the car was all over the place and Tim Harvey even commented on how untidy it was, and just when they expected him to go for a good clean lap he pitted after having a time disallowed.

Hill had the best theoretical lap of 1.30.955....He was fastest in both practice sessions too. Clearly the car is still fast on a single lap, just needs reliability now....

[3marinadrive]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I recollect a #HARD car with a puncture too; could it simply have bern a case of "pushing the envelope" in terms of setup vs. what the manufacturer recommended setup wise? Or maybe Butcher, Hill, OJ etc. all managed to find a rough bit of kerb that everybody else missed? It it were endemic in the design or a result of temperature I would have expected more. Or simply the odd few weaker tyres - Friday afternoon jobs! - luck of the draw with Motorbase having just walked under a ladder!

Hill's puncture in race three was due to his old mate Matt Neal hitting him at Graham Hill bend.....

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by 3marinadrive

Sutton, Cammish..they are his real favourites. He has managed Cammish in the past and got him the Nationwide sponsorship in Porsche so no surprise. Notice how he has his favourites and some he just ignores.

Every other word he says is Cammish!

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by 3marinadrive

Hill's puncture in race three was due to his old mate Matt Neal hitting him at Graham Hill bend.....

Matt Neale hitting something? It's about time he hit the pace car, get it ticked off the bucket list before his son takes over the ride next year.

(That's me speculating, I know nothing!)

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I recollect a #HARD car with a puncture too; could it simply have bern a case of "pushing the envelope" in terms of setup vs. what the manufacturer recommended setup wise? Or maybe Butcher, Hill, OJ etc. all managed to find a rough bit of kerb that everybody else missed? It it were endemic in the design or a result of temperature I would have expected more. Or simply the odd few weaker tyres - Friday afternoon jobs! - luck of the draw with Motorbase having just walked under a ladder!

Was the HARD car Ollie Brown in R2? Looking at the results, that seems to be the only time they weren't on the lead lap, aside from Goff's incident.

Hill's was a result of an incident, rather than a failure.

Which suggests that Motorbase were the team pushing the envelope too far?

Stephen Jelley - "Some cars have to gamble a bit [...] Motorbase are learning that car"
Four tyre failures on the same corner of the Focus would seem to indicate that the setup was a contributing factor?

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Was the HARD car Ollie Brown in R2? Looking at the results, that seems to be the only time they weren't on the lead lap, aside from Goff's incident.

Hill's was a result of an incident, rather than a failure.

Which suggests that Motorbase were the team pushing the envelope too far?

Stephen Jelley - "Some cars have to gamble a bit [...] Motorbase are learning that car"
Four tyre failures on the same corner of the Focus would seem to indicate that the setup was a contributing factor?

Brown's puncture was on the left rear hence why he spun at the bottom of Paddock Hill, I think everyone else's were on the front

[CarfanLUFC]

well don't know about anyone else but I just really enjoyed the racing....

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Pickles

Brown's puncture was on the left rear hence why he spun at the bottom of Paddock Hill, I think everyone else's were on the front

Thanks, my memory isn't the best. So it was Mr Brown at the rear - so maybe that was the result of his car and that of AN Other getting a little too intimate. Matt Bump Neale started at the back, so had an opportunity to rub the VW....

So the front "fails"(Jake being Matted isn't a fail) were all Motorbase - which suggests they pushed too far. Andy Neate was that little bit slower, so maybe the tyres on his car weren't worked quite so hard.

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Thanks, my memory isn't the best. So it was Mr Brown at the rear - so maybe that was the result of his car and that of AN Other getting a little too intimate. Matt Bump Neale started at the back, so had an opportunity to rub the VW....

So the front "fails"(Jake being Matted isn't a fail) were all Motorbase - which suggests they pushed too far. Andy Neate was that little bit slower, so maybe the tyres on his car weren't worked quite so hard.

After quali when Butcher's car was being weighed etc Harvey made a comment about how much camber the Motorbase cars were running compared to others...

[Pickles]

Also in no way pointing fingers but you'd assume it was contact that caused Brown's puncture, very rare to see wear related tyre failures on the back

[Sodemo]

Its funny becuase I said to my wife that I thought the FWD cars might suffer with tyre wear due to the heat. Surprisingly, it wasn't as bad as I feared, unlike at Thruxton a few years back when they had to shorten the race distance due to tyre issues.