[ELMS] ELMS Discussion

[Deleted]

[LC2guy]

The Brabham GTE car was testing at Silverstone in the ELMS test yesterday, any chance it could race in the ELMS race here at the end of the month ? I've seen nothing anywhere about it.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by LC2guy

The Brabham GTE car was testing at Silverstone in the ELMS test yesterday, any chance it could race in the ELMS race here at the end of the month ? I've seen nothing anywhere about it.

ELMS is Pro-Am, which is year old cars only. It'd need to race in WEC first.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

ELMS is Pro-Am, which is year old cars only. It'd need to race in WEC first.

Or Imsa, presumably. I've never liked that rule though. The point of the class is the pro-am format, not the age of the machinery.

[Mike E]

Hey mods, how about changing the name of this thread? It has turned into general ELMS chat and the series probably doesn't need a new thread for every season.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Hey mods, how about changing the name of this thread? It has turned into general ELMS chat and the series probably doesn't need a new thread for every season.

I agree, and for now have changed the thread title, but if you (or anyone) wants to start a 2019 or 2020 thread they are welcome to.

[gert]

Both Panis-Barthez and United drop 1 of their Ligiers for an Oreca for the next round at Silverstone.
(#23 and #22 respectively)

https://www.endurance-info.com/fr/pa...e-en-oreca-07/
https://www.endurance-info.com/fr/un...t-en-oreca-07/

[Deleted]

LMP2 is basically LMPC now

Guess they will have 98% Oreca grid for season opener next year and ACO shall attempt to push people back to few Onroaks and Dallaras with success ballast

[Tique]

ACO / FIA should allow a second joker to Ligier and Dallara.

[Akrapovic]

Too late. The damage is done. And if one of them nailed it and beat Oreca then you'd need to let Oreca have one. Since we've gone down this ridiculous route you might as well BoP the cars to avoid killing the market.

LMP2 needs to go back to open competition.

[seanyb505]

So of the 18 ELMS P2s entered for Silverstone:
4 Ligiers
1 Dallara
13 Orecas
0 Multimatics

Of the 9 WEC P2s:
0 Ligiers
1 Dallara
8 Orecas
0 Multimatics

The IMSA P2 duel is 0 anything except Oreca.

And AsLMS is like the wild west, but east according to everyone to their west. I'm pretty sure they can still run Lola B07/40 as far as I can tell.

Is this a problem in the ACOs eyes? Or who cares since there are entries?

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Too late. The damage is done. And if one of them nailed it and beat Oreca then you'd need to let Oreca have one. Since we've gone down this ridiculous route you might as well BoP the cars to avoid killing the market.

LMP2 needs to go back to open competition.

It needs to but it won't. Not any time soon. We are approaching the logical conclusion of this rule set: everyone converging on the best chassis.

The next step is success ballast, which might work for the regular season but is a headache for Le Mans because it includes non-regular season competitors.

And maybe a control tyre, because that removes another variable and variables are apparently the devil's work.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

And AsLMS is like the wild west, but east according to everyone to their west. I'm pretty sure they can still run Lola B07/40 as far as I can tell.

Only coupes are allowed as far as I recall, but that still grants plenty of access to pre-gen-2017, including Oreca 05, Onroak JSP2, SMP BR01, Dome S103, HPD ARX-04b, ADESS-Kodewa T128, the _million_ Lola variant choices, all with unlimited access to engines of choice of course

You know, Le Mans Prototypes. Not Le Mans Oreca-Zytek Formula Challenge or Le Mans Balance of Whatever

If the Asian Le Mans still carries out the pre-2017 P2 "Ams" into 2020-21 season, it will be the very last place in the world where wording "Le Mans Prototypes" stays true. Even if their tech has been frozen for years now, and there were cost cap measures at place for the 2011, at least at the time they were conceived, they were Prototypes, not spec or bop cars.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Mike E

It needs to but it won't. Not any time soon. We are approaching the logical conclusion of this rule set: everyone's money converging on the best chassis and Hugh de Chaunac's back pocket.

Let's not beat about the bush here; the justifications given at the time the chassis limitation was proposed were dubious at best, particularly because they were announced after the LMP2 chassis market had come out of its growing pains and was offering genuine choice while adhering to the cost cap.

I realise it will only ever be a thought exercise, but I wonder how the real-terms spend on chassis now compares to then - given that this was the one of the main reasons given by the ACO to support the restriction.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Let's not beat about the bush here; the justifications given at the time the chassis limitation was proposed were dubious at best, particularly because they were announced after the LMP2 chassis market had come out of its growing pains and was offering genuine choice while adhering to the cost cap.

I realise it will only ever be a thought exercise, but I wonder how the real-terms spend on chassis now compares to then - given that this was the one of the main reasons given by the ACO to support the restriction.

I think one of the other justifications was that it wasn't sustainable to have lots of constructors only building a couple of cars each. All very well if you are one of the selected constructors (unless you build a Riley/Multimatic Mobile Chicane Mk30). Same for the engine builders but that just kills the ones that don't get chosen.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Mike E

I think one of the other justifications was that it wasn't sustainable to have lots of constructors only building a couple of cars each. All very well if you are one of the selected constructors (unless you build a Riley/Multimatic Mobile Chicane Mk30). Same for the engine builders but that just kills the ones that don't get chosen.

I remember that line being peddled as well. As you say, it rings hollow when the proposed solution is to artificially accelerate the situation under the guise of protecting the chosen few.

We're going to end up in a situation where there is only one constructor in the running. If this happened without the restriction, then hats off to <insert constructor here> for building the best chassis. But to have such an obvious guiding hand will always rankle, regardless of whether the racing is great or gash (and I happen to think it's the former).

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by J Jay

We're going to end up in a situation where there is only one constructor in the running. If this happened without the restriction, then hats off to <insert constructor here> for building the best chassis.

As per Dallara in '90s/'00s F3. It does happen. But the LMP2 situation feels like watching this happen in slow motion and by design without actually mandating a spec chassis. Weird and frustrating.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Mike E

As per Dallara in '90s/'00s F3. It does happen. But the LMP2 situation feels like watching this happen in slow motion and by design without actually mandating a spec chassis. Weird and frustrating.

But Dallara in F3 rose to the top in open market, so I don't think it's comparable at all. Such is much more admirable than rising to the top in mandated spec market (created by the same company). And yes I do call it a mandated spec chassis when it's only choice of x and others are forbidden to join.

In the previous decade, it was pretty much all-Porsche galore in GT2 until Ferrari F430 (and to lesser extent names like Panoz) came along, which is something certain people have cited as supposedly negative in comparison to GTE or GT3. But again it was not only a matter of engineering deciding who's the best, but also the open market allowing things to evolve via natural course, not stagnate through spec or bop.

[J Jay]

Not that I'm one to talk when it comes to misinterpreting statements, but Mike E agrees with you. He gives the example of Dallara's F3 precisely because there was no limitation on anybody wanting to build an F3 chassis, but Dallara did such a good job (on the chassis and the aftercare, let's not forget) that everybody ended up with them.

As opposed to the situation we have now in LMP2, in which Oreca is the best ... of the four allowed chassis. We will never know if any the unworthy constructors (or anyone else who might have ventured into the class) could have outdone them.

[Akrapovic]

Arguably we don't know if Ligier or Dallara can do any better either because the Joker upgrade system isn't representative of how real development works. Upgrade packages can't be developed or tested - you need to nail it first time. That isn't how to get the best result. It worked best for ORECA because they didn't have to nail it first time - the car had been through several generations of development as the previous generation and R-One.

ORECA was the only company which got a traditional development cycle for the LMP2s. Everyone else just had to suck it up. The results are evidence of that.

[S griffin]

It’s always going to struggle to get multi chassis in the shadow of WEC. I think the series has been doing well enough in that regard

[Deleted]

"We can only regret that the LMP2 category becomes monotypic, but ORECA has nothing to do with it," added Olivier Panis.
http://www.automobilsport.com/race-c...assis,news.htm

Riight

[Mike E]

In retrospect, this formula should have included success ballast from day 1.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Mike E

In retrospect, this formula should have included success ballast from day 1.

Or not

[Deleted]

Astoundingly shocking news via SC365

It’s understood that United is pushing to transfer both of its ELMS entries to Orecas for the next round at Spa, after it ran an Oreca and a Ligier each on Saturday.

Will we get all- Oreca Formula Le Mans grid for 2020 season opener