FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[Gerard C]

Just fantastic to watch people racing historic historic cars… If you remember what the HTP was meant to be, your car should have one with no issue. But … my understanding of the appendix is that all the elements must be period correct AND fully compliant by the old rules… So only two options. The car is compliant to its homologation form and enters in a known category (group 1, group 2, A, …) and Bob's your uncle you get it right away. Or you go through the CSAH and have a category recognized such like BSCC, french Production and then ask for an HTP complying with this category. Long walk but worth. Probably.
I know there"s a thread talking about appendix K and so on. Several members asked for info though (Coombs Jag' and others). The list of HTP's issued is public, no secret there. Could it be useful to open a thread talking about HTP's only? Not forgetting that they do not belong to us any more and that a compliant car can have its regular HTP called back for examination if my understanding is good.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Just fantastic to watch people racing historic historic cars… If you remember what the HTP was meant to be, your car should have one with no issue. But … my understanding of the appendix is that all the elements must be period correct AND fully compliant by the old rules… So only two options. The car is compliant to its homologation form and enters in a known category (group 1, group 2, A, …) and Bob's your uncle you get it right away. Or you go through the CSAH and have a category recognized such like BSCC, french Production and then ask for an HTP complying with this category. Long walk but worth. Probably.
I know there"s a thread talking about appendix K and so on. Several members asked for info though (Coombs Jag' and others). The list of HTP's issued is public, no secret there. Could it be useful to open a thread talking about HTP's only? Not forgetting that they do not belong to us any more and that a compliant car can have its regular HTP called back for examination if my understanding is good.

Gerard,

Appendix K has always recognised various regulations, take the example of IMSA which is exactly what a BSCC car would be in terms of rules. An IMSA CSL has nothing to do with a Group 2 or Group 5 CSL.

1 - The rules existed in period.
2 - They were different to Appendix J but based on it.
3 - They ran at an International level in terms of Calendar so they can be recognised.

In fine, isn't it better to have regulations accepted and cars to comply rather than leaving them out and letting people make-up history?

On the HTP not belonging to you, it has always been a document owned by the FIA and this is the same for Homologation. And in any case, it can be recalled or cancelled as per Appendix K Art. 4.3.4.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

I know there"s a thread talking about appendix K and so on. Several members asked for info though (Coombs Jag' and others). The list of HTP's issued is public, no secret there. Could it be useful to open a thread talking about HTP's only?

My thoughts on the above part of your post are that any HTP questions could be incorporated into the Homologation Papers thread if the title was expanded. I think some HTP stuff has been covered in there already. (But I'm not going to read all way through to check!)

My powers don't include changing a thread title, so what do other mods think?

[Gerard C]

Thanks for your answer and yes its better to moderate what I wrote.

[John Turner]

Done.

[Mike Bell]

Cheers John!

[delta]

We have submitted HTP papers for several race cars recently." I seem to spend half the day sorting out papers "All have bounced back bar one. We have sorted out any issues and successfully resubmitted. but just recently applied for HTP for a Tiga Sports 2000. This car I have looked after for nearly 30 years and I know is absolutely spot on. Papers bounced back last week as we have a Hewland gearbox case on the car not a VW one. WTF.
I do think someone at MSA should have a bit of common sense. This car has a value of around £25.000.00 the owner just want to go motor racing.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by delta

We have submitted HTP papers for several race cars recently." I seem to spend half the day sorting out papers "All have bounced back bar one. We have sorted out any issues and successfully resubmitted. but just recently applied for HTP for a Tiga Sports 2000. This car I have looked after for nearly 30 years and I know is absolutely spot on. Papers bounced back last week as we have a Hewland gearbox case on the car not a VW one. WTF.
I do think someone at MSA should have a bit of common sense. This car has a value of around £25.000.00 the owner just want to go motor racing.

Delta, this is unfortunately the rule of period specification.

The owner might just want to go motor racing but this isn't a valid point as historic motor racing is about respecting the history I must say before thinking of racing.

[delta]

Originally Posted by Duddha

Delta, this is unfortunately the rule of period specification.

The owner might just want to go motor racing but this isn't a valid point as historic motor racing is about respecting the history I must say before thinking of racing.

Sorry Louis dont agree. Well cant agree.Just because the casing is visible we cant get HTP. I fitted a brand new CWP to one of the other cars. That,s OK then.??

[Mike Bell]

I always thought that the Hewland casing was a direct copy and therefore replacement for the original VeeDub item?

[Duddha]

On the Hewland casing, I presume they would be a VW copy as well. I am not involved anyway. But what I wanted to say, correct me if I'm wrong but the sake of being a racer and wanting to race does not mean anything has to be accepted. If not, just buy a modern car and go there as well.

[terence]

Half a potato with VW carved into the flat side and some Belzona alloy metal filler is what you need Iain.
Its helped a lot of other owners out.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by terence

Half a potato with VW carved into the flat side and some Belzona alloy metal filler is what you need Iain.
Its helped a lot of other owners out.

It worked on the old Kent engine blocks ! anyway what are you doing up at this time of the morning ?

[delta]

Originally Posted by Duddha

On the Hewland casing, I presume they would be a VW copy as well. I am not involved anyway. But what I wanted to say, correct me if I'm wrong but the sake of being a racer and wanting to race does not mean anything has to be accepted. If not, just buy a modern car and go there as well.

disappointing reply. I will send you a PM. Just want to know why, after running with this casing for the last 25 years someone at MSA says its not compliant.When I got the last set of FIA papers for this car with this gearbox there was no problem at all.
Must go I have to tell the owner who is 71 and probably only has a couple more years racing him we have to go and buy a Radical.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by delta

disappointing reply. I will send you a PM. Just want to know why, after running with this casing for the last 25 years someone at MSA says its not compliant.When I got the last set of FIA papers for this car with this gearbox there was no problem at all.
Must go I have to tell the owner who is 71 and probably only has a couple more years racing him we have to go and buy a Radical.

I would get your inspector to query the decision. Wouldn't be the first time that the 'powers', whether MSA or FIA, are wrong and just need telling.....

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I would get your inspector to query the decision. Wouldn't be the first time that the 'powers', whether MSA or FIA, are wrong and just need telling.....

First, this is what I would agree with, query the problem.

Second point, if your registrar is good, he should be able to tell you why as well. As I understand the problem, if MSA allows anyone to submit papers without knowledge, this is a clear problem.

Last, it is never the MSA that delivers comments unless it is an obvious problem but the FIA through submission by the MSA.

Also, please let me explain that first batch of HTPs were done by the FIA without the true knowledge and carefull procedure that has been put in place in recent years - And still is being worked on. And this is the reason, the new 26 pages HTP was introduced as well as a dedicated group of people that give their time behind the scene to try and keep it correct. And yes, this has created troubles as to why a car that was accepted 10 years ago as such is no longer going through.

[delta]

Thanks for the advice Louis, Doing this now.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Duddha

Also, please let me explain that first batch of HTPs were done by the FIA without the true knowledge and carefull procedure that has been put in place in recent years - And still is being worked on. And this is the reason, the new 26 pages HTP was introduced as well as a dedicated group of people that give their time behind the scene to try and keep it correct. And yes, this has created troubles as to why a car that was accepted 10 years ago as such is no longer going through.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Duddha, it's easy to forget your last point above. When, for instance, we applied to renew the HTP for my simple Morgan +4 last year, the inspector found several incorrect details on the original papers that would not be accepted now! Luckily none were as drastic as a gearbox casing, and were easily dealt with before submission.

I hope sorting the Hewland casing query is as simple for Delta and the Tiga owner.

[terence]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

It worked on the old Kent engine blocks ! anyway what are you doing up at this time of the morning ?

Theres a man who knows the ropes
Usual time Gordon,Deer,Wildboar etal arevstill about so its the best time to see them.

[piekey]

ok guys
we are a bit of a newbie on here, this FIA/htp paper thing is a minefield for us.

We require papers for race spec mk1 & 2 ford escort.

Wheel arch widths/spec,dash layout,suspension/linkbox spec etc etc
Any points in right direction would be great.
regards
Andy 07778 185606

[zefarelly]

I've got my new HTP, I have to say it was a doddle . . . maybe I've just got a simple car!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by piekey

ok guys
we are a bit of a newbie on here, this FIA/htp paper thing is a minefield for us.

We require papers for race spec mk1 & 2 ford escort.

Wheel arch widths/spec,dash layout,suspension/linkbox spec etc etc
Any points in right direction would be great.
regards
Andy 07778 185606

You need to be more specific, as homologation papers are available for various models. Have you got them, if not you need them- they give all the mods allowed in period. What spec are you building the car(s) to- Gp1, Gp2, Gp5......... Pushrod, Pinto, BDA, FVC........ Where are you intending to race it/them.... ?

[zefarelly]

Escort, not a simple car!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Escort, not a simple car!

Yes, apologies piekey for being a bit abrupt in my reply, Escort may be simple mechanically, but is not simple when it comes to 'papers'!

Starting again- are you looking for original homologation papers for a particular model, or looking to get a Historic Technical Passport for a particular car? If so, what exactly is it......

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

You need to be more specific, as homologation papers are available for various models. Have you got them, if not you need them- they give all the mods allowed in period. What spec are you building the car(s) to- Gp1, Gp2, Gp5......... Pushrod, Pinto, BDA, FVC........ Where are you intending to race it/them.... ?

Agree that the first step is to get the papers but I doubt you will find a set for the FVC engine.