[Rules] Future Rule Changes

[Formulahistory]

Originally Posted by wnut

Is the F1 hybrid formula really relevant to anyone?

what exactly does that mean?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Formulahistory

what exactly does that mean?

I think - that nearly a quarter of car sales in Norway are hybrid/electric, and that the volume of hybrid/electric sales across Europe is increasing.

The current engines may not reflect historical road cars, but they may be an indication of future cars?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Formulahistory

what exactly does that mean?

I am wondering myself. I am not sure it is what wnut thinks it is?

Originally Posted by wnut

Is the F1 hybrid formula really relevant to anyone?

I read the charts as...

1. In general EV + PHEV is a growing market.
2. That pure EV is in some places not growing as fast (even going backwards) when compared to PHEV.
3. That PHEV is showing real growth.

If PHEV is "Plug in hybrid" and HEV is "Hybrid"... then the answer to wnut's question is...

Absolutely!! It does seem the the F1 hybrid PU are very much relevant!

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am wondering myself. I am not sure it is what wnut thinks it is?


I read the charts as...

1. In general EV + PHEV is a growing market.
2. That pure EV is in some places not growing as fast (even going backwards) when compared to PHEV.
3. That PHEV is showing real growth.

If PHEV is "Plug in hybrid" and HEV is "Hybrid"... then the answer to wnut's question is...

Absolutely!! It does seem the the F1 hybrid PU are very much relevant!

Richard

It seems to me that part of the question is 'relevant to what?'

Relevant to current cars - increasingly so.

Relevant to future cars - almost certain.

Do we want F1 to reflect general automobile use? Or should F1 shape automobile use?

Is it coincidence that the best engine manufacturer in an era with fuel limits, have also produced the most efficient ICE to date?

[Sodemo]

When was F1 road relevant when they were producing V12's and V10's?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

When was F1 road relevant when they were producing V12's and V10's?

I don't remember F1 ever being road relevant but for the first time, it looks like it is.

[ASCII Man]

Sad times, then. We'll never get rid of these vacuum cleaner engines now...

[bella]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think - that nearly a quarter of car sales in Norway are hybrid/electric, and that the volume of hybrid/electric sales across Europe is increasing.

would love to know how those figures sit alongside government subsidies and tax breaks in the relevant countries. is it norway that's banning fuel only vehicles in the next decade?

[wnut]

I managed to track this down, it would appear that we are being lied to as to the growth of the electric car market.
Basically it has tanked for the past 3 years in Europe.

Total market share of electric vehicles in the European Union from 2011 to 2017, in percent



https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-in-eu-annual/

If you can't get above graph.

For years 2015/16/17

Battery EVs 0.43/0.43/0.54 %

Plug In Hybrid 0.65/0.65/0.64 %

Total EVs 1.08/1.07/1.18%

Not the startling growth apparently presented by the above original graphics when viewed in percentage terms of overall market share.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

would love to know how those figures sit alongside government subsidies and tax breaks in the relevant countries. is it norway that's banning fuel only vehicles in the next decade?

Yup Bella, love to know how the subsidies and prescriptive laws stack up against political donations and private Swiss bank a/c balances too.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by wnut

I managed to track this down, it would appear that we are being lied to as to the growth of the electric car market.
Basically it has tanked for the past 3 years in Europe.

Lies, damned lies and statistics?

The entire automotive market has flattened across Europe since the crash in 2008. Some peaks, some troughs, but a lot of people can't afford to consider new new cars these days.

The discussion around EVs of all types strikes me a bit like the panic over the start of rail passenger travel, early automobiles, or supersonic flight. It's new! It's awesome! It's new! We're all going to die! It's new, it's different, and I DON'T LIKE IT THEREFORE YOU SHOULDN'T EITHER, ad nauseum.

Like it or not, we're witnessing the first major change in personal transportation in about a century. Business and politics may be driving some of that change, but it's an exciting time to be witnessing it regardless.

Sure, these early versions are being viewed with suspicion or hostility by some - but the younger generations will be the ones who drive (excuse the pun) the changes forward, not us old gits with our entrenched views.

Bring on the solar powered autonomous car pool. I love driving my MX-5, it's great fun (especially in the snow!), but the days of one person per carbon chewing car are going the way of the T-Rex - museums.

Now, what about Honda...?

[wnut]

This article by Martin Brundle provides some interesting insights into F1 for rulemakers.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsp...=entertainment

Forgive the wodge!

"TIME TO MAKE UP THE RIGHT RULES’
Blinkered team bosses annoy and impress me in equal measure. They are hardwired to win for their team and they don’t much care about the bigger picture even if they pay lip service to it. The last team boss who tried to consider what might be best for the overall sport was Martin Whitmarsh at McLaren and look what happened to him.
Teams need protecting from themselves because they don’t seem to realise that a fragile grid of horrendously expensive cars in effectively three classes can only lead to extinction. There should be at least 24 reasonably matched cars from 12 teams on the grid who all make a sustainable profit and are building a valuable franchise. There’s already enough money in the system to do that.
Let me simplify that even more. Give us 24 well-matched, visually and aurally scary F1 cars with the fastest, bravest young drivers and we’ll give you copious trackside fans and an audience. All the tools are there, please deploy them."

Martin Brundle

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by wnut

This article by Martin Brundle provides some interesting insights into F1 for rulemakers.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsp...=entertainment

Forgive the wodge!

"TIME TO MAKE UP THE RIGHT RULES’
Blinkered team bosses annoy and impress me in equal measure. They are hardwired to win for their team and they don’t much care about the bigger picture even if they pay lip service to it. The last team boss who tried to consider what might be best for the overall sport was Martin Whitmarsh at McLaren and look what happened to him.
Teams need protecting from themselves because they don’t seem to realise that a fragile grid of horrendously expensive cars in effectively three classes can only lead to extinction. There should be at least 24 reasonably matched cars from 12 teams on the grid who all make a sustainable profit and are building a valuable franchise. There’s already enough money in the system to do that.
Let me simplify that even more. Give us 24 well-matched, visually and aurally scary F1 cars with the fastest, bravest young drivers and we’ll give you copious trackside fans and an audience. All the tools are there, please deploy them."

Martin Brundle

I love how Brundle thinks.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Greem

Lies, damned lies and statistics?

The entire automotive market has flattened across Europe since the crash in 2008. Some peaks, some troughs, but a lot of people can't afford to consider new new cars these days.

The discussion around EVs of all types strikes me a bit like the panic over the start of rail passenger travel, early automobiles, or supersonic flight. It's new! It's awesome! It's new! We're all going to die! It's new, it's different, and I DON'T LIKE IT THEREFORE YOU SHOULDN'T EITHER, ad nauseum.

Like it or not, we're witnessing the first major change in personal transportation in about a century. Business and politics may be driving some of that change, but it's an exciting time to be witnessing it regardless.

Sure, these early versions are being viewed with suspicion or hostility by some - but the younger generations will be the ones who drive (excuse the pun) the changes forward, not us old gits with our entrenched views.

Bring on the solar powered autonomous car pool. I love driving my MX-5, it's great fun (especially in the snow!), but the days of one person per carbon chewing car are going the way of the T-Rex - museums.

Now, what about Honda...?

Sure we are seeing changes in the auto industry.

We are seeing major strides being made with lean burn turbo engines, Mercedes. We are seeing Mazda HCCI with gasoline diesel engine technology, see thread in road car forum.

Battery vehicles are a coming thing.

However adding 40% to the weight of an F1 car and telling us that it is a coming technology is just perpetrating a fraud on the motoring consumer, and despite heavy marketing and government legislation the concept is still taking on water apparently.

[Articus]

If they get rid of the fuel flow restrictions, and only allow only one engine map, this might help the qualifying differential and aid drivers in pushing without conserving during the race.

[wnut]

Andrew Frankel - Was 2017 better?

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...-was-it-better

"What hope is there for a better show in 2018? Not much, I fear. There have been some rule changes aimed at limiting downforce but as usual these are mere finger-tip touches to the leaves of the nettle, when what’s needed is for someone to yank it out of the ground. What is required is the most comprehensive shake-up in the rules perhaps in the history of the sport, and we will have to wait until 2021 to get it. If that doesn’t deliver the fast but, above all, close racing every true fan wants to see, it will be impossible to conclude other than that the sport’s new owners remain far more concerned about what the marketing departments of car manufacturers and their sponsors want than the wishes of the fans who buy their products and, ultimately, pay for the sport.
The opportunity to create one of the greatest spectacles ever seen on screen or in person is clear to see, whether the new owners are genuinely committed to grabbing far less so."

2021 seems an inordinately long wait to fix a sport that seems headed toward a crisis, and even then we don't know weather Liberty will have the stones to finally fix the problems!

[S griffin]

It was a big mistake to increase downforce for 2017, at least they are getting rid of some of those ugly winglets which should never have been allowed back

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Andrew Frankel - Was 2017 better?

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...-was-it-better

"What hope is there for a better show in 2018? Not much, I fear. There have been some rule changes aimed at limiting downforce but as usual these are mere finger-tip touches to the leaves of the nettle, when what’s needed is for someone to yank it out of the ground. What is required is the most comprehensive shake-up in the rules perhaps in the history of the sport, and we will have to wait until 2021 to get it. If that doesn’t deliver the fast but, above all, close racing every true fan wants to see, it will be impossible to conclude other than that the sport’s new owners remain far more concerned about what the marketing departments of car manufacturers and their sponsors want than the wishes of the fans who buy their products and, ultimately, pay for the sport.
The opportunity to create one of the greatest spectacles ever seen on screen or in person is clear to see, whether the new owners are genuinely committed to grabbing far less so."

2021 seems an inordinately long wait to fix a sport that seems headed toward a crisis, and even then we don't know weather Liberty will have the stones to finally fix the problems!

Surely, the marketing departments of car manufacturers and their sponsors want to see close racing just like every true fan? If the racing continues as it is, there won't be any fans, for the marketing departments of car manufacturers and their sponsors, to pitch to. 2021 does seem like an inordinately long wait.

[midgetman]

By 2021 it will be too late. With the death of free to air TV, no one will be watching. Sponsors will be disappearing like the morning mist as they realise the falling number of eyeballs.

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[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by midgetman

By 2021 it will be too late. With the death of free to air TV, no one will be watching. Sponsors will be disappearing like the morning mist as they realise the falling number of eyeballs.

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That is bandied about often as the death knell of anything on TV in the UK. Honestly asking what else is predominantly on free OTA as I have lived in a world of most everything outside of American rules football moving to cable and increasing in viewership over the 80s-10s. That's now falling but that's a trend for most everything not on-demand, just some things are faster than others like the NFL.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

That is bandied about often as the death knell of anything on TV in the UK. Honestly asking what else is predominantly on free OTA as I have lived in a world of most everything outside of American rules football moving to cable and increasing in viewership over the 80s-10s. That's now falling but that's a trend for most everything not on-demand, just some things are faster than others like the NFL.

Still on FTA in the UK is some major soccer, such as World Cup and European Cup, the Olympics and other athletics, some skiing, rugby and even some motor racing including possibly the major European saloon car championship, the British Touring Car Championship. Plus more besides such as horse racing, tennis including Wimbledon and some cricket.

On the other hand, F1 viewing figures make for miserable reading. Since pay per view was introduced and only half the races are shown live on FTA, the audience has dropped by 50%. As Midgetman says, when the FTA stops at the end of the 2018 season, the fear is that that audience figure will plummet even further, leaving less than a quarter of the original figure. It just costs too much; SKY has had to reduce it to £18.00 ($24.33) per month on top of the basic package of £40 ($54) per month. But it just too damn expensive for most people.

And what's most galling to me as someone who has followed F1 for over 50 years is that BCE gave his undertaking that, whilst he was alive and in control of F1, it would always remain on FTA. He decided to break that undertaking in his pursuit of even more money that he will never spend. Although his two daughters will do their best to burn their way through it.

[midgetman]

With hindsight CVC were on a huge cash acquisition path before they sold out. Hike the fees, do TV deals that won't do the sport any favours, do unsustainable deals with despot countries. And now Liberty has to sort out the mess. Nice work for CVC, another nail for F1.

Santander and Hugo Boss gone. McLaren without a title sponsor. Malaysia gone. GB going. Falling TV figures. To quote James Callaghan - "Crisis? What crisis?"

Also note that here in the UK cricket and golf have both suffered from a lack of visibility by going behind a pay wall. I work in kart racing and the kids that come along are inspired by "heroes". Where will the casual viewer find his heroes in 2020? Existing fans will watch, but they'll die off and where will the next generation come from? BCE's famous "Rolex" quote comes to mind.



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[S griffin]

I seriously hope Liberty do something about it, as it would mean less fans of the future generation if there isn’t any exposure

[loon]

Liberty are just like CVC but with a smiley face

[old man]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It was a big mistake to increase downforce for 2017, at least they are getting rid of some of those ugly winglets which should never have been allowed back

Watched replay of the 2008 British GP the other night, I had forgotten how bad the winglet problem was back then!