uk f1 tv coverage - sky, bbc and ch4

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

No - it stayed on the car (side of the nose, level with front wing plates):

Ah, now I understand. Max was so offended by it he was trying to remove it.....

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Ah, now I understand. Max was so offended by it he was trying to remove it.....

I did find it somewhat ironic that the only image I could find with that controversy was published to highlight a different controversy.

[Aysedasi]

An irony not lost on me when I saw it.....

[Paradise City]

I just think all that belaboured kneeling & stuff is just toothless and ludicrous also with that poetry piece they repeat every time & here they are in Saudi Arabia. It was obvious there was some early understanding between the Saudis and F1 to do some token minority pieces so as not to embarrass the drivers too much.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Paul di Resta pointed out something very important regarding how the TV is edited.

After the race, they showed the onboard from Max/Lewis incident before the final corner. According to the video (which was supplied by FOM), Max was radioed only 3-4 seconds before he braked, as he entered the straight. This gives the impression that Max immediately reacted to the radio call.

Paul di Resta pointed out that is absolutely not what happened live. Max was told midway round the lap, as he was listening to the live radio at the time.

The video provided by FOM is edited and makes the incident look more spontaneous than it is. Now, I'm not suggesting foul play with that, but it is important in realising that what we see has been massaged by directors before it gets to us.

The delay on team radio messages being broadcast has been mentioned many, many times by commentators during races - often what is said makes it plainly obvious that it isn't live.

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

That's very interesting. I don't blame Max for picking his spot, so to speak, but I do wonder why Lewis didn't get the message in a more time fashion?

Well I guess that race control can only inform one team at at time, then the person on the team in touch with race control need to tell the engineer who speaks to the driver, then the engineer tells the driver - often waiting for a straight or similar to not distract the driver on a critical part of the circuit - can all add up to some delay.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

That's very interesting. I don't blame Max for picking his spot, so to speak, but I do wonder why Lewis didn't get the message in a more time fashion?

Lewis was once penalised for giving a position back in a way that he meant he could immediately repass. I believe it was a 25 second penalty too.

So whilst I don't blame Max, as he was probably briefed to do it there, I do think that's not only penalty worth, but has been given extreme penalties before. And Max did it once, and tried to do it again before Lewis negated it.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The delay on team radio messages being broadcast has been mentioned many, many times by commentators during races - often what is said makes it plainly obvious that it isn't live.

But we're not talking about the live broadcast.

Timeline according to the FOM Video (this is not live. It is a replay of events provided after the race):

- RBR Radios Max entering the back straight
- Max slows down seconds later

Timeline according to di Resta and Ant

- RBR Radios Max in approximately S1
- Max slows down two thirds of a lap later

This isn't blaming Max (he's doing what he was almost certainly told to do by his team pre-race), but it is highlighting that the way FOM presented the events post race was absolutely not accurate. Given this incident occurred due to time critical messages, it is a bit poor to provide a replay of it that doesn't represent the timeline of the events accurately.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Timeline according to the FOM Video (this is not live. It is a replay of events provided after the race):

- RBR Radios Max entering the back straight
- Max slows down seconds later

Timeline according to di Resta and Ant

- RBR Radios Max in approximately S1
- Max slows down two thirds of a lap later

There is an official account of when the instructions were given, in the FIA document.

'At turn 21 the driver of car 33 was given the instruction to give back a position to car 44 and was told by the team to do so “strategically”.'

At full speed, there are 13 seconds between turn 21 and turn 26.

[Aysedasi]

That's a long time, but still no-one told Hamilton?

[crmalcolm]

For context - the message to Verstappen was 8 seconds in duration.

If whoever was monitoring that transmission in the Mercedes garage immediately got on the radio to Hamilton and relayed the same message, the transmission would be completed 3 seconds after the collision.

[Aysedasi]

That figures, I guess....

[Mike Harte]

Then that timeline indicates that both teams should be told simultaneously, in the same way that other safety type messages are relayed to the teams.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Then that timeline indicates that both teams should be told simultaneously, in the same way that other safety type messages are relayed to the teams.

Yes, and in these modern times, I find it hard to believe that this isn't possible.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Then that timeline indicates that both teams should be told simultaneously, in the same way that other safety type messages are relayed to the teams.

I'm not sure I am following.

Do you mean that
A) Both teams should be told simultaneously that the Race Director thinks a place should be handed back?
Or
B) That an instruction from a team to a driver should be told simultaneously to both drivers?

Personally - I can see issues with both.

A) The direction to hand back a place comes from the Race Director to the team - the team have the option to inform their driver of this, or to not hand back and have the matter referred to the Stewards. In the example at Jeddah - if Mercedes heard the same transmission and then told Hamilton straight away that Verstappen was going to hand back the place, he may have backed off a bit. If Red Bull then decided to not hand the place back, they could gain a significant advantage in time.

B) If a driver is told to hand back a place, there is still in the drivers' control the decision of when he hands it back (within reason). If Hamilton hears straight away that a place is to be handed back, he might think that a change of direction is an intent to let him through, when in reality Verstappen might not be doing so at that point.

In my opinion, the answer is simple. When you are handing back a place, you are to move clear of the racing line and slow sufficiently to allow the following driver through comfortably.

[chillibowl]

dont they also receive an email or some sort of direct message in addition to the radio message? also there are the messages which appear on the live timing screens...or are those messages only for indicating an investigation message?

anyways, they obviously have a few people working in there at the same time so they can make multiple calls at the same time. they dont necessarily have to hear from the race director because at that point the time for debate is over with right.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

In my opinion, the answer is simple. When you are handing back a place, you are to move clear of the racing line and slow sufficiently to allow the following driver through comfortably.

Still can be viewed as ambiguous (what exactly does "slow sufficiently" or "comfortable" mean). But I do generally agree with that approach.

I think however what you are missing is the point that the overtaking driver should also know what is going on, or might potentially happen. And that this should happen before the leading driver provides the opportunity. I firmly believe that if Lewis had more information at his disposal, things would likely have played out differently.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I firmly believe that if Lewis had more information at his disposal, things would likely have played out differently.

I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Why? The Stewards' Document:

'Whilst accepting that the driver of Car 44 could have overtaken Car 33 when that car first slowed, we understand why he (and the driver of Car 33) did not wish to be the first to cross the DRS. However, the sudden braking by the driver of Car 33 was determined by the Stewards to be erratic and hence the predominant cause of the collision'


For me, the lack of communication may have been a contributing factor, but the root cause was the sudden braking.
On commentary, it was observed that Verstappen's position on the track may have come from him driving to his mirrors - and knowing Hamilton was immediately behind him he applied 69 bar resulting in 2.4g deceleration.

Sorry - gone a bit off topic to concentrate on the incident.
Probably best to carry on the conversation about whether race control / radio messages can contribute or mitigate an incident in the Driving standards/ stewarding thread?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But we're not talking about the live broadcast.

Timeline according to the FOM Video (this is not live. It is a replay of events provided after the race):

This isn't blaming Max (he's doing what he was almost certainly told to do by his team pre-race), but it is highlighting that the way FOM presented the events post race was absolutely not accurate. Given this incident occurred due to time critical messages, it is a bit poor to provide a replay of it that doesn't represent the timeline of the events accurately.

Replays are usually exactly that - a replay of what was shown or recorded live. Didn't see the piece you're referring to and bear in mind that it may not have been FOM that provided the replay - might have been Sky using the FOM footage already used and replaying it.

There are many things in TV presentation of sport that aren't accurate (including large amounts of commentary) and this sounds like just another example of that.

[Paradise City]

Just have a digital display scroll across the dash simultaneously.

Offending driver message: "we see you! now give it back." (thumbs down emoji optional)

Wronged driver message: "listen, wake up, sleepy head. he's giving it back, so eyes on the road & not in the clouds, son".

[Adam43]

We’ve strayed a little way away from the coverage now.

How rules should be imposed or the impact on that race see the relevant thread. We have huge repetition with those threads. People might want to talk about Ted you know!

The, things aren’t always live and differences with production teams and choosing what to show are understood now.

[Skam85]

To get it back on track, I absolutely love Button and Rosberg's commentary.

[Adam43]

Me too.

When Rosberg did it I was very impressed. You’d never have known that it got quite, er, tense with Hamilton when they raced together. Not that there should have been a problem.

Also I was a fan when he raced so it was nice to hear him do well at that too.

[Knowlesy]

It wouldn't be in Rosberg's interests to downplay Hamilton of course. But yes, I enjoy his commentary even if he does say "the tyres are raging hot" far too much.

Off topic, but they are blatantly going to be on friendly terms when both have retired. Both are happy with their place in the world now!

I would quite happily have Rosberg, Button, Webber and DC just sharing duties between them. Sack off the lead commentator as it is a dead art and just rotate between younger retired drivers. Brundle has had his day now I think.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Replays are usually exactly that - a replay of what was shown or recorded live. Didn't see the piece you're referring to and bear in mind that it may not have been FOM that provided the replay - might have been Sky using the FOM footage already used and replaying it.

There are many things in TV presentation of sport that aren't accurate (including large amounts of commentary) and this sounds like just another example of that.

FOM provided the replay. When Paul called out the inconsistency, Simon said this video was supplied by FOM. Sky wouldn't have access to the raw footage and radio for this anyway.

[crmalcolm]

For those interested in observing the exact timing of the message and collision (as broadcast) - 1:13 in this video - https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/v...353440121.html