Argentine Touring Car Series 2022

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by TuteZaek

Werner, actual defending champion fighting for the third championship in a row, was penalized after winning for track limits in a maneuver where Urcera (Eventual Winner of the race and points leader over Werner, after this race) also did touch the blue part, even if a bit less(as a lot of others did, like Canapino who later had engine problems, ran in 5 cylinders for a few laps)
Even then Werner actually went to the Podium, but was really ****ed.

Urcera then did some hand signs to **** off Werner's fans and... well, lets say that before this he wasn't the most liked of the drivers, now everyone hate him even more.

And now everyone is kinda ****ed at the race officials, so another week in argentine racing.

Every series needs it's bad guy.

Sounds like a big mess.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

The TN debuted in 1961. Like the TC, it's run as a drivers association. The TN has had ups and downs. Originally it featured both circuit and rally races, including the Gran Premio de Turismo, a 4,000 km odyssey.

Champions include Leonel Pernia, Mariano Werner, Matias Rossi, Emanuel Moriatis, Esteban Tuero, Patricio di Palma, Carlos Reutemann, Gabriel Raies, Jorge Recalde, Oscar Fineschi.

Big logos don't necessarily mean big money.

Interesting. I wasn't really aware of TN before. Overall it seems to do pretty well these days, lots of cars entered.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by TuteZaek

The sponsorship thing was always something like we see now, in fact a lot of legendary drivers in the past drove thanks to "peñas", local organizations made the exclusive role of covering the season/car of a driver using a lot of local bussines as help as well as raffles, partys and the like, and was usually a big thing of pride for the town so they included a big decal with the name of said place normally on the windshield or the bonnet of the car.

It's not normal to have whole teams with big sponsors in TC, TN or TR, while it is more common on TC2000, usually from petrol companies.
In TC instead, most of the sponsors come from the agricultural bussines (both now and before, with names like Speedagro, Agrospray, Cargil, Don Roque, Agco-Allis to name a few both older and current)
That said, most of the sponsorship is driver based not team, with TC2000 and some TC teams as exceptions, in the later case, Dowen Paggio is now sponsoring the whole Guri Martinez team, Herramientas Coiro sponsoring the Dole Team and finally YPF doing the same with TGR



Image of a Ford Falcon "sponsored" by the Quilmes Automovil Club, one of the longest running peñas, their last TC driver was Acuña in 2006.


In terms of costs, i think the TC and TC2000 are somewhat equivalent with a season of TC being a little more expensive (last i heard), but it seems more sustainable and has the better structure in place for private drivers, while TC2000 is designed for the "Works teams" ecosystem and now is in a big struggle
The numbers of cars on both paint an interesting picture, with TC being an invitation/progression series (You have to have 100 races on an ACTC series before entering, or being champion on one of them) but having 50ish cars/drivers planned for 2023 again and the TC 2000, an open series, struggling with less than 20 cars...
Furlan (Retired Driver who is kinda against ACTC, never raced on TC) earlier this year comented "An invitation only series should not have a national champion" and a journalist asked "If the invitational series has 50 drivers and the open one is struggling, who's at fault?"

Well it's pretty cool with the local structure of a town or city getting together to sponsor a driver.

I noticed all the agricultural companies in TC, which is different. You don't see many agricultural companies in other parts of the world get involved with motorsport as a sponsor. Of course agriculture I know is a big part of the economy in Argentina so maybe that is part of it.

10 years ago TC2000 seemed to have quite a few factory sponsored teams but that seems to have gone away. It's interesting they are trying the SUV thing going forward.

So I guess to get into the main TC series you have to have a 100 races in their lesser series like TC Pista?

[TuteZaek]

TN had a "rough patch" when was broadcasted alongside the Top Race by Carburando, being seen as the side dish, after some boradcasting divorces TN followed TC to the TV pública and got really better coverage and reach, with a lot of big name drivers entering (and as of now, dominating) while TR is struggling

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

So I guess to get into the main TC series you have to have a 100 races in their lesser series like TC Pista?

Afaik, TC Mouras (3rd tier series) Champions get to go to TC after a year on TC pista, TC Pista Champions and regular season winner/2nd also get the pass, then Is discretional, but 100 races between TC pista and TC pickup aré a requirement, everyone needs some races at the mouras at least.

There aré some small problems with this as some drivers like Chapur, a National Champion (TN), Is still in TC pista, doing really well but not having the pass and a lot of TC2000, the other top series having to go to the Mouras and Pista mouras, which Is seen as a downgrade for the likes of Llaver

All in all the ACTC Is its own racing ecosystem, which helps and forms drivers from really young ages and get them to really top level but Is kinda separated from the other series and that brings some troubles and struggles with them

[FIRE]

Thanks for these insights.

[hondafan37]

Some rumors I heard last weekend:

*Canapino to TC Pick Up.
*Ardusso and Pernia could go to the TC Pick Up too.
*Toyota would be only in the TC and TC Pick Up.

If all this happens, the TC 2000 would be complicated.

*Toyota could withdraw from Stock Car Brazil too, will Rossi go to TC Pick Up?

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Some rumors I heard last weekend:

*Canapino to TC Pick Up.
*Ardusso and Pernia could go to the TC Pick Up too.
*Toyota would be only in the TC and TC Pick Up.

If all this happens, the TC 2000 would be complicated.

*Toyota could withdraw from Stock Car Brazil too, will Rossi go to TC Pick Up?

Canapino (and Rossi) on the TCPK could be the thing that finally launch the series to the "Big league"

Werner-Rossi team on the TCPK? That could be interesting, also don't forget Santero (That was really silent on the issue yesterday on UV)

In his case, mi guess is if any of the TGR guys go to TCPK, Werner is out of the TGR Hilux, seeing that the TGR driver roster is being reduced and he is the least integrated one on the whole ecosystem (only did TCPK, while everyone else participated in other TGR sanctioned activities)

Ardusso would be out of the Honda team? (The only one that seem commited to 2023)

Pernia will not defend his championship?

None of this is good news for TC2000

Then of course is the issue of Barrio with a posible Camry in TCM built by JP Carrera to start his ACTC ladder.

And finally the future of Montenegro (who together with Barrio and Fritzler who is already on the ACTC side, are spearheading the new generation ), who is looking overseas and Llaver, who commited almost his whole carreer to TC2000 and now is without a drive.

Things turned out really grimm.

[uesugi kenshin]

With a second tier Pickup next season i can't see how either Tc2000 or Toprace can survive unless they merge, maybe a weekend of TC 2000, TRV8 and a shared junior series.

[TuteZaek]

As of now TR Is isolated from ACTC, only competing with TN (they already lost a lot of drivers with them tho)

TC2000 and the TCPK AND more importantly the ACTC Feeder series had competing schedules till now, and thas were the TC2000 problems lies, specially when involves drivers outside the ACTC umbrella who have prospects of driving on the agurably most important series on the country

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by TuteZaek

TN had a "rough patch" when was broadcasted alongside the Top Race by Carburando, being seen as the side dish, after some boradcasting divorces TN followed TC to the TV pública and got really better coverage and reach, with a lot of big name drivers entering (and as of now, dominating) while TR is struggling

TN seems to be doing pretty well. The racing is really good and I think it's because the cars don't really have any aero and the speeds are not too crazy so they can go wheel to wheel. Kinda of reminds me of the early days of SuperTouring around 1993/1994.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by TuteZaek

Afaik, TC Mouras (3rd tier series) Champions get to go to TC after a year on TC pista, TC Pista Champions and regular season winner/2nd also get the pass, then Is discretional, but 100 races between TC pista and TC pickup aré a requirement, everyone needs some races at the mouras at least.

There aré some small problems with this as some drivers like Chapur, a National Champion (TN), Is still in TC pista, doing really well but not having the pass and a lot of TC2000, the other top series having to go to the Mouras and Pista mouras, which Is seen as a downgrade for the likes of Llaver

All in all the ACTC Is its own racing ecosystem, which helps and forms drivers from really young ages and get them to really top level but Is kinda separated from the other series and that brings some troubles and struggles with them

I'm guess in Mouras and Pista the drivers/teams are using older hand me down cars from the top series and some other rules to make the racing cheaper than the top TC?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Some rumors I heard last weekend:

*Canapino to TC Pick Up.
*Ardusso and Pernia could go to the TC Pick Up too.
*Toyota would be only in the TC and TC Pick Up.

If all this happens, the TC 2000 would be complicated.

*Toyota could withdraw from Stock Car Brazil too, will Rossi go to TC Pick Up?

I saw an interview with Canapino a few days ago. Said he is considering all offers in all series and was open to TC PK as well as doing Top Race and TC2000 if he had too. Said he had a big family with mouths to feed and the financial situation in Argentina, etc.

At least that is what my basic spanish and closed captioning on YT told me

TC2000 seemed to have a lot of manufacturers 10 years ago but it aint looking good now.

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I'm guess in Mouras and Pista the drivers/teams are using older hand me down cars from the top series and some other rules to make the racing cheaper than the top TC?

In a way yes, in terms of engines in the Mouras and Pista Mouras they're using the old pushroded I6 that the TC used till 2015 (that they still aré being made).
As of chassis, they are allowed to use the older gen, but they're transitioning to the newer Jakos (from the Dole team, father of both Marcos and Alex Jakos, the drivers) buiilt ones.

TC Pista Is basically a restricted TC with diferent BoP adjustments.

This comonality is designed so a driver could go from TC Pista Mouras to the TC using the same chasis (provided they ran a Jakos one on the lower ones)

The Pick-Ups aré built on a " longer" Torino chasis (which seems the most adaptable of the current 4) and use a rev restricted "multivalvulas" .
This means that TC pista or TC drivers could use their engine on both series, and so did Werner last year, who tested his TC engine on the trucks races.

[TuteZaek]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

TC2000 seemed to have a lot of manufacturers 10 years ago but it aint looking good now.

Mismanagement Is hell of a drug, isn't?

About the economics thing...if you race profesionally (and your surname is Canapino)...
It's and always has been a rich boy (or a well off at least) sport.

Wanna know about the agricultural conections? A lot of the drivers came fron agro-adjacent families

[NaBUru38]

TC at San Nicolás comedy highlights by Satrasca


https://twitter.com/Satrasca1/status...38663213268994

[NaBUru38]

Pablo Peón was the TC2000 president from 2002 to 2015.

He had some radical ideas: tuner-style cars, spec engines, V8 engines, street races, night races, stadium races, foreign races, oval races, two-driver races, etc. Some were a success, some were a failure, some were aborted.

The TC2000 had a peak in 2010-2011 with 7 factory teams and over 20 factory drivers. When Peón left, there were 5 factory teams.

During the Abrazian era, factory support continued, but complaints continued with the unreliable V8 engines.

The Oreca turbo engines debuted in 2019 under Edgardo Fernández, which were more reliable but also more silent. The pandemic hit them hard.

[FIRE]

Finally managed to watch the TN races at Trelew. Class 2 and 3 had both great racing.

[FIRE]

This weekend TN has it's La Carrera de Los 200 Pilotos event.
Agustin Canapino joins Manuel Mallo at the M3 Sport Race team.

I assumed it was an endurance race like the 200 km race of TC2000 but according the schedule the regular and invited drivers race seperate races. The invited drivers race just for glory, not for points?

[TuteZaek]

For points that go to the main driver... so kinda.
An interesting proposition given how close the championship is

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by TuteZaek

For points that go to the main driver... so kinda.
An interesting proposition given how close the championship is

Strange concept, I am not sure I like it.

Longer races, for example 60 minutes, with halfway pitstop for driver change isn't possible?

[TuteZaek]

Did you see any TN Race? it'll become a race of survival, maybe they end with 4 cars and none of them unscathered

Jokes aside, id guess the fuel system isn't prepared for a mid-race refuel and modifying it wasnt seen as feasible given the times.

Also, is a freaking huge field, if you took the numbers, the usual TN shenanigans and add pilots unfamiliar with the racing "etiquette" of the series and the cars themselves... yeah, they took a mild (a bit too much in my view, also) aproach, and i understand why.

I'd love a longer race with pilot change in the pits tho, so you're not alone

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by TuteZaek

In a way yes, in terms of engines in the Mouras and Pista Mouras they're using the old pushroded I6 that the TC used till 2015 (that they still aré being made).
As of chassis, they are allowed to use the older gen, but they're transitioning to the newer Jakos (from the Dole team, father of both Marcos and Alex Jakos, the drivers) buiilt ones.

TC Pista Is basically a restricted TC with diferent BoP adjustments.

This comonality is designed so a driver could go from TC Pista Mouras to the TC using the same chasis (provided they ran a Jakos one on the lower ones)

The Pick-Ups aré built on a " longer" Torino chasis (which seems the most adaptable of the current 4) and use a rev restricted "multivalvulas" .
This means that TC pista or TC drivers could use their engine on both series, and so did Werner last year, who tested his TC engine on the trucks races.

The Pick Up series seems very popular and I can see that getting even more popular in the coming years.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by TuteZaek

Mismanagement Is hell of a drug, isn't?

About the economics thing...if you race profesionally (and your surname is Canapino)...
It's and always has been a rich boy (or a well off at least) sport.

Wanna know about the agricultural conections? A lot of the drivers came fron agro-adjacent families

Yes it always takes large sums of money on a regular basis to make it in motorsport and to stay there. Not really surprised that some of the drivers come from wealthier families in the agriculture industry.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Pablo Peón was the TC2000 president from 2002 to 2015.

He had some radical ideas: tuner-style cars, spec engines, V8 engines, street races, night races, stadium races, foreign races, oval races, two-driver races, etc. Some were a success, some were a failure, some were aborted.

The TC2000 had a peak in 2010-2011 with 7 factory teams and over 20 factory drivers. When Peón left, there were 5 factory teams.

During the Abrazian era, factory support continued, but complaints continued with the unreliable V8 engines.

The Oreca turbo engines debuted in 2019 under Edgardo Fernández, which were more reliable but also more silent. The pandemic hit them hard.

Certainly something went wrong there. I was able to see a few TC2000 races maybe 10 years ago, maybe more, can't remember, but watching it now on Youtube it seems to be a shadow of itself from what I remember all those years ago. Clearly they got to do something to get it back to what it was.