[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 20 of 21

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by wnut

Again, Ocon is the faster car and Verstappen is then being shown the blue flag!

This could not be more wrong, I'm afraid. Please educate yourself on the blue flag procedure here: https://www.formula1.com/en/champion...ing/Flags.html

"Warns a driver that he is about to be lapped and to let the faster car overtake."

[wnut]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

This could not be more wrong, I'm afraid. Please educate yourself on the blue flag procedure here: https://www.formula1.com/en/champion...ing/Flags.html

"Warns a driver that he is about to be lapped and to let the faster car overtake."

So Ocon is already behind and is coming to unlap himself, so Verstappen should be yielding, otherwise it is just simple overtaking and no blue flag (this should have warned Verstappen unfairly anyway) should be displayed. Ocon is allowed to unlap himself and overtake the leader, and it should be in his right to defend his track position whilst doing so, he is not being lapped at this point, he is attacking not defending, the stewards are wrong!

[EffectiveSprinkles]

I will direct you once again to where I directly quoted the stewards in post #243. You are also once again incorrect about the flag rules.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I will direct you once again to where I directly quoted the stewards in post #243. You are also once again incorrect about the flag rules.

It is not a blue flag situation ( in the definition ), Ocon is not about to be lapped by a faster car, he is the faster car unlapping himself by overtaking a slower car.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

And failing to do so. Which is why he got penalized for hitting Verstappen.

https://streamable.com/qktk4

These stabilized shots really help a lot. Here it can be clearly seen Ocon hit the throttle into turn 2 to make a completely unnecessary and unexpected desperate move.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

And failing to do so. Which is why he got penalized for hitting Verstappen.

https://streamable.com/qktk4

These stabilized shots really help a lot. Here it can be clearly seen Ocon hit the throttle into turn 2 to make a completely unnecessary and unexpected desperate move.

He is there, right alongside, and needs to be given racing room by Verstappen (something Max never does), Max then just cuts him off into the next corner, as Ocon said, he made the exact same pass seven times in the race with no problems. Sorry I am convinced this is Max's fault.
Good discussion though thanks Sprinkles. I have to go now, let us see what the rest think.

[bella]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

And failing to do so. Which is why he got penalized for hitting Verstappen.

https://streamable.com/qktk4

These stabilized shots really help a lot. Here it can be clearly seen Ocon hit the throttle into turn 2 to make a completely unnecessary and unexpected desperate move.

dunno about that. to me it just looks like ocon gives verstappen exactly what verstappen (or even perez) would have given in that position. ie, he kept his foot in and maintained his passing attempt. he went for the gap that he'd created the same way everyone does when they go round the outside at turn 1.

the only thing i'd say that ocon misjudged is the keenness with which he went after verstappen. but that's no less than what verstappen would have done himself.

ps i have no horse in this race. especially not now having seen the actual incident itself. the commentators - especially palmer on radio 5 live - made it sound far far worse than it actually was.

[Compromised]

So max was technically in the right... Where did he finish again????

I've seen Hamilton let through cars legally he didn't have to, but was smart enough to know it wasn't worth the trouble. The best drivers, like Lewis, have ability and brains. Does max have a brain?

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by bella

dunno about that. to me it just looks like ocon gives verstappen exactly what verstappen (or even perez) would have given in that position. ie, he kept his foot in and maintained his passing attempt.

On the leader, being a lap down. He failed, crashed into Verstappen and got a penalty. You've missed out those details.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

So Ocon is already behind and is coming to unlap himself, so Verstappen should be yielding, otherwise it is just simple overtaking and no blue flag (this should have warned Verstappen unfairly anyway) should be displayed. Ocon is allowed to unlap himself and overtake the leader, and it should be in his right to defend his track position whilst doing so, he is not being lapped at this point, he is attacking not defending, the stewards are wrong!

I agree with you, the stewards got it wrong. At the time, I said Verstappen blew it and watching the footage again, several hours later, he blew it. He didn't need to turn into Ocon and should have let Ocon unlap himself, as it would have had no bearing on the result. Ironically, trying to stop Ocon from unlapping himself did have a bearing on the result.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Ocon was daft, but Verstappen could have been smarter.

Knowing the race win was on the line, he should have given Ocon a lot more space. No risk approach, what champions do. But these are rough edges with Max that are yet to be ironed out. I am not a fan of Hamilton by any means, but he was right in his reasoning with him this time.

Still Ocon's fault and the penalty was right, but Verstappen could have done more to avoid it.

Blue flags definitely need to go though.

Both McLaren received points on their licences for ignoring blue flags while being lapped.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/139985

[bella]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

On the leader, being a lap down. He failed, crashed into Verstappen and got a penalty. You've missed out those details.

i feel like i'm going round in circles here. being a lap down is fairly irrelevant given he was faster and was fully entitled to take the lap back in those circumstances. he and verstappen drove into each other, they both went for the same apex. we aren't talking about a manor of a few years ago having a fight with a red bull. who had the most to lose here? the guy in the lead or the one further down the field but who was at that point in the race, faster?

i've missed out those details because they're either not really that important, or they're your opinion. they both went for the same bit of track. turns out neither of them got it. end of story really.

i think they both got their penalties without the need for the stop and go - ocon would have lost places and verstappen didn't win the race. the latter won't have learnt his lesson because verstappen, but i'm sure ocon's had his future read to him by the team and the stewards.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Like what, how and why?

Max in the cockpit, likely to be aware thanks to team radio that Ocon is behind on faster tyres -

"Okay, I'm leading the race here, Ocon is quicker, there's nothing to be gained from fighting him. When he gets close, I'll won't fight"

My point is, Verstappen sees him steaming up the main straight with DRS, better tyres and a spritely Mercedes engine could have very well left him a nice 1.5-2 car gap into turn one (and turn two) and while he may have lost a second or so to Hamilton, would have been pointing the right way, undamaged, mildly flustered but still in the lead of the race. Maturity and experience will see him act differently - especially if he is battling for the championship one day.

Ocon's move was bone-headed but Verstappen could have backed way out by the time he realised what he was doing. It wasn't too late.

how it panned out vs how it should have panned out are different matters.

What really should have happened - Ocon should have followed him into turn one and made a clean and harmless unlapping move after the second DRS zone into turn 4.

Ultimately, Ocon is in the wrong. As we can see by the correct penalty decision. There is no fault with Max, but he could have been smarter.

[EastonNeston]

Regardless of what happened on track, Verstappen was guilty of a pre meditated assault on another competitor.


That is never acceptable, & he is very lucky to have just been given 2 days of public service as his punishment, losing his silence for 12 months would be much more appropriate.


As many have said before, his father was a thug & it seems Max is too.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

losing his silence for 12 months would be much more appropriate.

Heavens No. I'd much prefer Max to maintain his silence for the next 12 months.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by bella

i've missed out those details because they're either not really that important

They are absolutely crucial. He was a lap down, failed to unlap himself and then hit Verstappen. Those are cold hard facts and the reason he got such a hefty penalty. Simply ignoring them because they don't fit your narrative does not really promote an honest discussion.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Skam85

how it panned out vs how it should have panned out are different matters.

Indeed, the problem is that people seem to solely focus on the latter rather than the first which is unfair with the benefit of hindsight. It's like saying it would have been smarter for Vettel not to crash while leading in Germany or for Hamilton not to turn in with Kimi behind him at Silverstone. Or, as I've pointed out, for Montoya to wait another corner before overtaking Verstappen. It's saying you expect a driver to be able to look 30 seconds into the future and then slapping him on the wrist for not meeting those expectations. It's wanting to make a judgment call on a non-existent possibility, just to be able to say 'he could have been smarter'. A completely meaningless statement. I can only guess why people do it, but bias and or wanting to feel superior to an F1 driver cannot be ruled out.

As Martin Brundle has already said: there is absolutely nothing Verstappen could or should have done differently there. There are no lessons to be learned. Sometimes bad things just happen.

[Skam85]

Without hindsight analysis, I think these threads would probably be about two pages long.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

There are no lessons to be learned.

Agree to disagree here, I reckon it's safe to say if Verstappen is in a similar position in the future he'll remember this crash and make sure he does everything in his power to avoid an incident.

As will Ocon - who, if his career pans out as it should (Mercedes works drive) - may not be in the position of unlapping himself very often anyway.

[Compromised]

No lessons to be learnt?

Lost a race win through an avoidable incident. Suspect there may be something in there for Max to analyse ie. would letting Ocon through be worse than losing the win?

[Taxi645]

My wife thought of a good way to spend those two days community service; giving Hamilton (and himself probably) some urgently needed lessons in Samba dancing.

[Taxi645]

To those so eagerly and tellingly assuming that Ocon was actually faster because he or his team said so.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...Esteban%20Ocon Consider the following. Verstappen, being on new tyres himself with clearly the fastest car of the race, just a few laps before (unlike Ocon) set the fastest lap of the race with a large margin. Neither Mercedes nor Ferrari was able to keep up.

Sure he might have been able to keep up momentarily by overdriving his new supersofts and perhaps using aggressive engine modes (I hope not for FI sake). Here is a driver, thinking like any other F1 driver he is the fastest in the world if only he had Lewis' car, who still hasn't got a seat secured in even a B team while his rival of his generation is hailed as the new WC.

Desperate to make his mark at one of the last opportunities at the end of the season he let's poor judgement get the better of him. Instead of advicing him against this ill conceived notion, his team encourages him to have a go (in effect not harming Mercedes one bit). Ocon can't make it stick (because his car isn't actually faster in the first place) and in his desperation takes out the race leader where he had no bussiness being close to.

[Mike Bell]

Just watched the highlights and logged back in to the forum. No surprise at the amount of 'round in circles' discussion about one incident. I'll just agree with the comment LH made to Max in the podium room.....

On a different subject, surprised no-one has mentioned the potential problem Merc had with LH's car mid race, which according to Toto (C4 interview after race) had some sort of 'imminent engine failure' warning flagged up back at base, requiring it to be turned down and 'managed' for a while.....

[Akrapovic]

Lewis Hamilton and the majority here seem to agree. Ocon is 100% in the wrong. Max is 100% in the right. But Max could've avoided that and taken the win.

Horner endorsing violence, however, is unacceptable. He should be hauled over the coals for that.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

in his desperation takes out the race leader where he had no bussiness being close to.

Ocon was clearly faster and Verstappen actually made defensive moves against Ocon, 2:00 onwards: https://streamable.com/0bynn

Why Verstappen didn't just let Ocon go makes no sense! Why actively defend against a car you are not racing!? What's the point?

In complete context, the incident appears quite different to Ocon randomly ramming into Verstappen for no reason (as it first appears).